Tesco consider adding the points of discarded receipt as theft

Edwood_Woodwood

lucy03 wrote: »

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As for whether a fraud has taken place, technically IMO it has. The individual has attempted to use loyalty points belonging to someone else and they sought to deprive Tesco of them.

But the OP didn't take the receipt out of someone's hand or pocket.

It was seemingly discarded into a trolly. The fact there was only 2 points would suggest the original purchaser wasn't bothered or may not even have had a clubcard.

If knowingly and voluntarily discarded by the original customer then it ceases to belong to them.

The OP attempted to claim the points and Tesco's t&cs does not specifically prohibit this.

What possible fraud are you on about?

Edwood_Woodwood

lucy03 wrote: »

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Nobody gained a thing is clearly wrong. Someone has taken loyalty points meant for another customer and used them for themselves. So a customer has gained 2 points. Tesco has lost 2 points as they were only available to the person who purchased the shopping. They're not transferable because it's a marketing system.

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Again, this was 2 discarded, maybe unwanted, points, Tesco do not address this in their terms.

Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Tesco almost certainly factor in effectively a penny off a £1 item (1 point) when pricing goods so they would not be losing anything, they expect that reduction, any points unclaimed would be a bonus to them.

Lastly, the points were not transferred, as mentioned before.

lucy03

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

Again, incorrect, regarding this particular incident.

Tesco did give a reason.

Discarded/unwanted points are not mentioned at all by Tesco in their t&cs.

However, one could argue that the OP has attempted to abuse the clubcard scheme and Tesco's response to this, in their t&cs, is that they may withdraw/cancel the offender's clubcard.

Instead, Tesco did not follow their own t&cs regarding this alleged transgression and what their penalty should have been and marched the OP to a back room, called him a thief and banned him from the store.

This was far more severe than what they themselves state they may do and, indeed, I would suggest quite unlawful.

Points can't be transferred by any means without their permission, "Clubcard accounts, cards, key fobs, coupons, points and vouchers cannot be transferred, bought, sold or in any way traded" is all encompassing. They are covered in their terms. Legal documents rarely tend to cover every case because that often weakens them and doesn't strengthen them, but this is IMO sufficient.

One can argue anything they like, but Tesco can cancel the Clubcard as they wish. There is provision for an individual to contest this via the civil courts if they wish.

Tesco did follow their own terms and conditions, they banned the person from their store. They are entitled to say that the person has intended to steal Clubcard points which were not theirs. It's clear there's not a strong enough legal case or indeed any reason to start a criminal case, but they can say that privately to the individual if they want if they choose to explain why they are banning them. They don't have to give a reason but there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

lucy03

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

Again, this was 2 discarded, maybe unwanted, points, Tesco do not address this in their terms.

Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, Tesco almost certainly factor in effectively a penny off a £1 item (1 point) when pricing goods so they would not be losing anything, they expect that reduction, any points unclaimed would be a bonus to them.

Lastly, the points were not transferred, as mentioned before.

(i) They don't need to address it. They simply mention you cannot transfer points by any means.

(ii) That's a commercial decision by Tesco and irrelevant.

(iii) Doesn't matter, the Theft Act has provision for intent.

lucy03

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

But the OP didn't take the receipt out of someone's hand or pocket.

It was seemingly discarded into a trolly. The fact there was only 2 points would suggest the original purchaser wasn't bothered or may not even have had a clubcard.

If knowingly and voluntarily discarded by the original customer then it ceases to belong to them.

The OP attempted to claim the points and Tesco's t&cs does not specifically prohibit this.

What possible fraud are you on about?

(i) It doesn't matter how it was discarded, the individual did not have permission to pass that receipt off as their own.

(ii) A customer can do as they please with the receipt, that's up to them.

(iii) Tesco terms and conditions do prohibit it, they ban any transfer by any means and in any manner. Legal documents are general in this sense deliberately, they don't try and cover every possibility of how the transfer could happen, that would weaken the document.

(iv) The actions were an attempt to defraud Tesco of 2 Clubcard points.


The Clubcard system is effectively there as a marketing tool for Tesco. If someone uses points meant for other people it diminishes the point of the scheme for Tesco, they have a good reason to not encourage this type of action. The reasonable threshold for a criminal action is obviously way over 2 Clubcard points, primarily for reasons of intent, but with reference to their terms and conditions it's sufficient for them to cancel the Clubcard account.

lucy03

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

We are not talking of "clubcard points" in their entirety.

We are specifically discussing 2 clubcard points and which is what this thread is all about.

2 clubcard points are worthless as 2 points cannot be exchanged for 2 pence from Tesco. One has to amass a minimum 150 points to get any monetary value (£1.50).

If these 2 points were never added to and the balance remained at 2 points on this card then they would be forever worthless.

In any case, Tesco themselves declare that points have no value until converted into vouchers so why you feel you can overrule Tesco and their clubcard scheme is beyond me.

What you might be specifically discussing doesn't mean others will. The principle of the Theft Act is theoretically relevant whether the amount is 1p or £1,000,000. The reality is that intent is easier to prove on higher amounts and no-one is realistically going to pursue a small sum of money.

Tesco do not say their points have no value, that's a ridiculous argument. Of course they have value, they can be used as vouchers to save money on shopping and for other uses.

They say that the points don't have "value until", which is to say that you can't claim your points before they issue the statement. This wouldn't make any difference to the Theft Act, that simply suggests intent and that could be suggested at any stage if a large number of receipts were used.

Cornucopia

Tesco wrote:

Points have no value until converted into vouchers at the end of the collection period.

I can see this isn't going to get resolved without a detailed examination of the legislation.

There are two potential offences.

Fraud by false representation (1) A person is in breach of this section if he -
(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) intends, by making the representation—
(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


For this to apply, the OP would have had to have made a representation, which he probably didn't. We'd also need a legal opinion on how distant and how conditional the loss to Tesco could be and still warrant the charge. (I'm guessing that the conditionality would be the issue as the law tends to avoid thought-crimes, where it can).


There's also Fraud by failing to disclose information

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he -
(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information -
(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


In this case, the legal opinion needed would be on the meaning of "legal duty to disclose". Does this mean only legislation, or can it apply to the requirement of contracts e.g. Ts & Cs?

wealdroam

meer53 wrote: »

Does anyone really care anymore about this ?

Yes, Mr WoodWood does.

Me? I'm enjoying my popcorn.

Cornucopia

I think it's an interesting issue.

People drone on and on about "laws" being imposed by "Europe", and yet they are seemingly quite happy to have them imposed by Tesco's.

Edwood_Woodwood

lucy03 wrote: »

What you might be specifically discussing doesn't mean others will.

They say that the points don't have "value until", which is to say that you can't claim your points before they issue the statement. This wouldn't make any difference to the Theft Act, that simply suggests intent and that could be suggested at any stage if a large number of receipts were used.

Of course I am specifically discussing this circumstance because that is what the thread is about.

The basic issue is that of 2 points, not any more, only 2 points.

2 points cannot be converted into a voucher, whether before or after they issue a statement, as 2 points are not worth anything, one has to amass a minimum of 150 points for any monetary value.

We are not talking ifs or buts about large numbers of receipts being used. What was attempted to be used was 2 points on one receipt.

Had the OP used a discarded receipt with 150 unclaimed points, which would have the minimum monetary value for a £1.50 voucher, then that maybe different.

I don't agree that the clause that forbids transfer is all encompassing.

I believe that Tesco have ignored the issue of unwanted points simply because, quite rightly, they assume who would not want essentially something for nothing anyway?

I doubt it is much of a problem which is why it isn't an issue, certainly not one I've heard before.

And I've no doubt another Tesco employee may have just added the points anyway.