Problems with brand new Vauxhall Corsa

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Quite right - a car salesman should answer questions truthfully, but if the customer doesn't ask:

"Will the DPF clog and land me with a big bill within a few months if I only drive it five miles a day?"

or

"If I only drive 5 miles a day, would it be a better choice to buy a petrol? Could you explicitly state that whether this diesel is the right choice?"

He isn't going to say anything. Ultimately, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect that if someone's paying out thousands of pounds for a product that they'll have done at least a modicum of research.

It's not like the diesel/petrol debate is hard to come by on the internet, or that DPF issues haven't been covered at length on consumer TV programmes, car buying advice websites, etc.

I think it is ENTIRELY UNREASONABLE to expect the average UK car buyer to understand the technology in a car.

As far as most car buyers are concerned, the choice of diesel or petrol is down to mileage vs noise. To suggest that your style of driving, when driving according to the way you have been taught (even when driving according to an advanced driving qualification), driving legally, driving the same way you have driven for 30 years, is sufficient to destroy a car, as opposed to failing to do basic maintenance, is not reasonable.

I would suggest that the average car buyer would not have a clue about what a DPF is, and why that makes the cars unsuitable for them. We are talking about people who might have owned diesels before.

I think this forum really lets readers down when posters post these "you are supposed to be an expert on how cars work" style responses. It's a car, it is sold as a car. Consumer legislation is not buyer beware, it should be sold as fit for purpose. If there is something about the product that makes it unsuitable for a particular customer, and this is a known problem, it is down to the salesman to identify that and make sure that they do not sell it to them, it is their job, it is their duty as the representative of the company they work for to ensure that the company complies with consumer legislation. A good analogy would be if you take on finance at a dealership - these days the chances are you will be taken to the finance manager who ensures that they are absolutely compliant with financial regulations - so when it comes to finance, they will put in the procedures to make sure they comply.

Basically, the manufacturers have been compelled to put in DPF filters (or some other similar device) to meet emissions. The fact that SOME manufacturers have failed to come up with a reliable way of making engines to this specification is their problem and it is not acceptable to dump their failure to overcome the technical problems onto the consumer. Basically, if you can't make the product work properly, you shouldn't be selling it rather than saying "Too difficult, buyer's problem."

I dread to think what new problems the Euro 6 spec will foist on the unwitting consumer.

10,000 miles a year is not an unreasonably low mileage and if a manufacturer can't make a car work at that mileage, more or less regardless of mix of driving, then they shouldn't be selling the car.

If the original poster does not get satisfaction, I would make a small claim to get the money back. For starters, the dealer will probably fold at the sight of a legal claim, it is not worth their cost and time to defend, and in court, they could not prove that they had sold it with instructions to change lifestyle to suit the car.

oldhand

I would be inclined to take it up with vauxhall themselves if you get no joy with the dealer who sold the car as it seems ridiculous to be having that trouble at such low mileage.Regarding them believing you should have known I would look upon a car much as any piece of equipment bought for my use.
If you buy a washing machine its fair to assume you know not to overload it,you should know how to fill it and which detergent to use but not what goes on behind the panel which is the service engineers job and why you pay so much.
The fact your car did not reach 1000 before breaking down says more about vauxhalls engineering than your driving.
Dont give up on this if you get no satisfaction from vauxhall let them know you will be contacting anyone who you think may help,consumer protection,watchdog,newspapers etc you may be surprised how quickly they change their minds when (bad) publicity is involved,good luck.

AdrianC

IanMSpencer wrote: »

I would suggest that the average car buyer would not have a clue about what a DPF is, and why that makes the cars unsuitable for them. We are talking about people who might have owned diesels before.

The problem is that DPFs are, as you point out, required for emission compliance. Especially with CO2-based VED, and the very low VED rates so many modern diesels are being taxed at, with very high official economy figures, people are _assuming_ that diesels are the no-brain choice.

The OP bought the Corsa because it was the "cheapest new 5dr". I would lay money on them applying a similar thought process to the fuel choice, and not giving a moment's thought to fuel choice - "diesel's more economical, so cheaper". Is it the salesman's job to second-guess whatever decision making process has gone on, and educate the consumer? Or should they take the buyer's statement - "I want a diesel Corsa" at face value? Is taking it at face value "mis-selling"?

If they salesman's job is to educate, how far does that go? Pointing out the undoubted truism that buying a new car to try to save money is almost always a brain-dead misunderstanding of basic mathematics?

topdaddy_2

So Op you have accepted it and paid for the repair?

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

AdrianC wrote: »

If they salesman's job is to educate, how far does that go? Pointing out the undoubted truism that buying a new car to try to save money is almost always a brain-dead misunderstanding of basic mathematics?

I would say it is not a matter of education, it is a matter of identifying the likely usage pattern and if that rings alarm bells, they should not be selling the car.

After all it is not rocket science and with two or three questions you would sort it without the customer walking out and should be obligatory when selling a modern diesel.

What sort of driving do you do? Long commute, down the shops and so on?

Oh. I need to confirm that you do not expect to make regular journeys that the car can get thoroughly warmed up. To comply with emissions, cars have a device fitted that catches the soot you often see from some diesels. This can clog up if the car is not driven for long periods without getting suitably hot.

OK, from what you say you should not consider buying any car with what they call a DPF fitted - that really means you should not buy a diesel. You should buy a petrol car, even though the mileage may seem worse, the cost of faults on the DPF caused by driving in a way the car cannot deal with is not warranted and repairs can cost several hundred pounds so you probably will not save money. Any salesperson should tell you this, whatever brand of car you buy.

If you are determined that you still want a diesel, I need you to sign this just to confirm that you understand that you need to drive the car in an appropriate way.

If salesmen can't be bothered to have that style of conversation regardless of what expertise the buyer has, then I would say that the liability rests firmly with the dealer.

FWIW, I am a 10k a year driver these days, and when I bought my diesel I got zero pushback when I asked about DPF limitations, so even if you explicitly ask, the chances are a salesman does not know or does not care. It is virtually impossible to buy petrol versions of some cars these days - Merc on the C class have all but withdrawn petrol versions except for a bottom end and a high end model, the middle of the range are all diesel.

AdrianC

But, just as a reminder, since this has wandered WAAY off track, the OP's issue is VERY unlikely to be due to DPF-unfriendly use. Not after a thousand miles of mixed use.

matttye

I've been seeing more and more experiences posted online of DPF problems recently.

I have a Diesel 1.5 Dacia Duster. My mileage is usually about 10 miles on an average weekday, 5 miles each way to work and back, but then every other weekend I do a 240 mile round trip, mainly all dual carriageway and motorways (120 miles on Saturday then 120 miles back on Sunday).

There's a couple of 60 mph roads on my commute to and from work but probably only takes a couple of minutes to travel along those if I can actually get up to 60.

Also do a fair bit of motorway driving for work as well, but that's irregular. Probably once every 2-3 weeks.

Does that sound like ideal sort of driving for a diesel vehicle? Nothing about how it should be driven was explained to me when I bought it apart from I shouldn't go above 2,500 revs for the first 900 miles.

I haven't made my own thread as the issue is very much related to this one, but if the OP would prefer me to make my own thread I'd be grateful if a mod could move it.

Thanks

pstuart

Could the OP please name the Vauxhall dealer involved.

neilmcl

AdrianC wrote: »

But, just as a reminder, since this has wandered WAAY off track, the OP's issue is VERY unlikely to be due to DPF-unfriendly use. Not after a thousand miles of mixed use.

I tend to agree. Also, lets not forget the dealer can't just say that it's down to misuse, they have to prove this and I think they'd be hard pressed to do so in this instance given the sort timescales and mileage involved.

Let's hope that Vauxhall's customer services sees sense and pushes the dealer to do the right thing.

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

AdrianC wrote: »

But, just as a reminder, since this has wandered WAAY off track, the OP's issue is VERY unlikely to be due to DPF-unfriendly use. Not after a thousand miles of mixed use.

I agree. But anyhow, just to rebut the dealer's excuse, as I asked what the manual said, let's take a look as they are on line:

Diesel particle filter The diesel particle filter system filters harmful soot particles out of the exhaust gases. The system includes a self-cleaning function that runs automatically during driving. The filter is cleaned by burning off the soot particles at high temperature. This process takes place automatically under set driving conditions and may
take up to 25 minutes. Fuel consumption may be higher during
this period. The emission of smells and smoke during this process is normal.

Under certain driving conditions, e.g. short distances, the system cannot clean itself automatically. If the filter requires cleaning and previous driving conditions did not enable automatic cleaning, control indicator ! flashes. Continue driving,
keeping engine speed above 2000 rpm. Shift down if necessary.
Diesel particle filter cleaning is then started. Stopping the journey or switching off the engine during cleaning is not
recommended.

Caution
If the cleaning process is interrupted more than once, there
is a great risk of provoking severe engine damage.
Cleaning takes place quickest at high engine speeds and loads

The control indicator ! extinguishes as soon as the self-cleaning
operation is complete. If A illuminates additionally, cleaning
is not possible, seek the assistance of a workshop.

If the dealer or receptionist can point to anywhere within that section where it explicitly says anything about how to drive the Corsa, they are a better man than I.