DVLA - No Valid Tax on Vehicle Kept on the Road

Rover_Driver

srisport wrote: »

Thankyou to everyone who has replied

Rover Driver - have you a source I can quote from regarding the SORN - new tax application. Sorry to be a pain but I'm trying to get as much ammo as possible when fighting this case.

Kind Regards

Mike

s.33A,(1), Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994, as amended by s.188, Finance Act 2013.

'Renewal etc.
The period of 14 days following the time when a licence or nil licence for or in respect of the vehicle, or a relevant declaration applying to the vehicle, ceases to be in force, but only if an application for a licence or nil licence for or in respect of the vehicle to run from that time has been received before that time.'

Joe_Horner

Not if you had access to the DVLA computer.

Say my car is on SORN today and I buy tax tomorrow. The tax will run from last Tuesday (start of the month) and the system will cancel the SORN from that date because it can't handle a car being taxed and SORN at the same time.

So, when the database is queried because someone sees me without a tax disk, it will show SORN expired on 30/06 but tax paid for on 05/07. So grace preriod doesn't apply.

You could probably argue the matter in court, but you shouldn't have to. It would be better all round if they either applied common sense when deciding whether to prosecute, or just got rid of SORN altogether seeing as logically it's an entirely redundant system - for the honest motorist, a car is either taxed or off road (no need to make a declaration), for the dishonest motorist saying it's off road when it isn't is just another porkie and isn't going to bother him at all.

But that's an entire other thread....

Rover_Driver

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Not if you had access to the DVLA computer.

Say my car is on SORN today and I buy tax tomorrow. The tax will run from last Tuesday (start of the month) and the system will cancel the SORN from that date because it can't handle a car being taxed and SORN at the same time.

A SORN declaration ceases to be in force when a vehicle is used or kept on a public road - s.33A, (2), Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994, as amended by s.188, Finance Act 2013.


So if you start to use and licence a SORN vehicle in the middle of the month, the licence will start from the 1st of the month, but the SORN declaration will cease to be in force and the 14 days grace will start from the middle of the month.

Joe_Horner

Yes, I completely understand what you're saying and agree that's what's supposed to happen.

But that's not what the DVLA record will show. It will show the SORN ending on the same day / day before the tax starts because they're not able to have a car flagged as SORN and taxed at the same time.

So, when someone checks their database because they've seen a car without a disk in the example I gave above, it will show "SORN ended 31/06/14" and "tax purchased" 05/06/14" - which is after the SORN ceased to apply.

Because a great deal of policing motoring matters nowadays is done on the basis of "computer says", this will trigger a penalty because the computer will say that the grace period doesn't apply.

Rover_Driver

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Yes, I completely understand what you're saying and agree that's what's supposed to happen.

But that's not what the DVLA record will show. It will show the SORN ending on the same day / day before the tax starts because they're not able to have a car flagged as SORN and taxed at the same time.

It's not what the DVLA records may or may not show, it's the legislation that matters, the DVLA will know when the licence was applied for which is what matters, and which is when the SORN declaration will cease to be in force.

Joe_Horner

Again, I agree - if you're prepared to fight all the way through (and hope that the courts get it right at the first try).

But the simple fact is that it is what the DVLA records say that matter when it comes to triggering these things. Policeman sees car without tax disk. Checks with DVLA.

They show tax applied for after the date their system shows the SORN expiring because the system will not show it expiring when you bought the tax, it will show it expiring on the 1st of the month.

Computer says grace period not applicable because tax bought after SORN expired, so a penalty is issued. You then have to either pay it or fight it, potentially all the way to appeal.

Rover_Driver

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Again, I agree - if you're prepared to fight all the way through (and hope that the courts get it right at the first try).

But the simple fact is that it is what the DVLA records say that matter when it comes to triggering these things. Policeman sees car without tax disk. Checks with DVLA.

They show tax applied for after the date their system shows the SORN expiring because the system will not show it expiring when you bought the tax, it will show it expiring on the 1st of the month.

Computer says grace period not applicable because tax bought after SORN expired, so a penalty is issued. You then have to either pay it or fight it, potentially all the way to appeal.

The DVLA records will show the date the licence was applied for, although it will be dated from the 1st of the month.


It is that date that is relevant as far as the SORN declaration ceased to be in force and the 14 days grace starts.

srisport

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Again, I agree - if you're prepared to fight all the way through (and hope that the courts get it right at the first try).

But the simple fact is that it is what the DVLA records say that matter when it comes to triggering these things. Policeman sees car without tax disk. Checks with DVLA.

They show tax applied for after the date their system shows the SORN expiring because the system will not show it expiring when you bought the tax, it will show it expiring on the 1st of the month.

Computer says grace period not applicable because tax bought after SORN expired, so a penalty is issued. You then have to either pay it or fight it, potentially all the way to appeal.

Thankyou Joe and Rover for all of your input, it is very much appreciated and has given me plenty of ammo.

Luckily i file all my documents for reasons just like this. its just a shame we rely so much on computers today that even the most simple of problems cause massive problems for good honest folk like ourselves!

just out of interest Joe, what source are you using to base all your facts upon? personal experience or word of mouth?

Kind Regards.

Mike

[Deleted User]

This will likely get passed to bailiffs who will visit early in the morning to try and extort money from you along with extra added illegal fees. If I was you I would tuck the car away in a locked garage until all this blows over so they can't try it on by illegally clamping you.

Joe_Horner

Rover_Driver wrote: »

The DVLA records will show the date the licence was applied for, although it will be dated from the 1st of the month.


It is that date that is relevant as far as the SORN declaration ceased to be in force and the 14 days grace starts.

The DVLA records show that a car is either SORN or taxed. They have no facility to hold a SORN declaration for a car ith valid tax. They made this quite clear when CIE came in, which does NOT actually require you to surrender tax on an uninsured car. But their recording system can't handle a car being "taxed and SORN".

So, once their system shows that tax was in force from 1st of the month (even having been bought later) it also shows that the SORN expired on that date because that's how their records are kept - a car is either taxed or SORN, but never both. They treat that as an impossible situation regardless of what the legislation actually says.

Seeing as these penalties are triggered by what DVLA records say when queried that means that you would have to be prepared to go to court to argue the (legally correct) position that you're describing.