Nice People 12: Nice in Nice

GDB2222

lostinrates wrote: »

Oh I am sorry bugs.

Its so sad, I think it was inevitable, but such an awful situation. Your poor friends. . Big dog is't far behind. I've taken her off the second of two meds, the one she dislikes, so she can enjoy what's left more. Ironically pretty sure she has cushings but not going to bother testing or medicating.

Surely, the breeders have a lot to answer for if a 5 year old dog has spinal issues?

Nikkster

PasturesNew wrote: »

I say that like you too.

I heard a funny one on telly the other day, can't think what it was now though ....

The Ikea advert surprised me - I call it I Key Er
Advert called it: Icky Er

term-er-rick for me too.

It's like Leee-dul. Which I refer to as Lidl (li-dul), as does every other British person I've heard say it out loud.

lostinrates

GDB2222 wrote: »

Surely, the breeders have a lot to answer for if a 5 year old dog has spinal issues?

Possibly, but not surely.

'Surely' precludes possibily of inappropriate exercise, management , nutrition through out that short life. Also consider for giant breeds, five is young but 'not that young' live expectancies can me much much shorter. Great Danes are often quoted as 6-8 years old on average. Many live much much longer, ( over ten) which means losing some at five is the statistical balance.

Five is not so heinous when vcompared to an average life span of 6 to 8.

Like big dog. For all her health problems, which I think are resultant of breeding issues, and why she was never bred from, her breed life expectancy is 6-8. We have only lost one before six ( big dogs sister) and only one other before eight. We owned one of the oldest on record, but whoop di do, it means very little unless the dog is happy and healthy.

She is nine now. If we were going to push on with meds I reckon I could get another few years out of her. But apart from people telling me how fabulous I am for getting her to such a tremendous age I have to balance whether its in her interests.




Still not sure we're quite there fwiw. But I feel like I'm back on death watch like I was with old horse, and its much easier with a horse than with a dog that weighs more than a grown man and has a sore back.....I cannot just pop her in the car if her back goes.


GDb, a final point is, do you have to blame the parents when children are born with illness that takes them prematurely?



Personally, I am all for increased responsibility of breeding and records of health. But five for a Great Dane is dramatically different than five for a lab, or a grey hound, or a little dog. There is no 'surely' about casting blame. I don't know the breeders, their dogs or their breeding practice and ethos, nor the owners and their husbandry or thoughts on feeding. Just like I don't know about the parents of kids who did something 'just once' and ending in disaster. Spinal problems can be breeding often in these big dogs, they can be husbandry, or they can be one of those things. Just like things that happen with our kids, that people look to blame on injections, or diet or genes...... Sometimes we can point it, but we need to know facts...not just say 'surely..'.


All dog breeds are artifice. That doesn't mean they aren't valuable to us still. Some of them. Some are certainly suffering.

Nikkster

GDB2222 wrote: »

Thanks for the reminder that I need to go and pick some apples.

Me too (assuming they're still there - not been out for a couple of weeks).

I should also do 'something' about the potatoes too. Anything that needs doing needs doing this weekend really.

bugslet

GDB2222 wrote: »

Surely, the breeders have a lot to answer for if a 5 year old dog has spinal issues?

As lir said. This is the fourth Dane they have had from the kennels, they have a continuing relationship with the breeder; sometimes things just go wrong and 5 is older in a Dane than 5 is to a Klein Spitz.

lostinrates

By coincidence, I found my self looking up powderpuff chinese crested this morning ( a breed I know nothing a bout....but some do have hair...the powderpuff) and I think they look quite cute ......the list of health problems after the 'relatively health breed of dog' and then ' in common with other toys' made me realise how apologetic we sight hound and giant people are about relatively healthy dogs!

Still think powderpuffs look cute. New doggy fantasy ( I.e, never going to happen' owning group of elfin looking dogs.....kiwi, a clipped powder puff, a I.g., not sure what else.

GDB2222

LIR and Bugslet, I hear you, but I don't agree entirely. These dogs have been bred almost entirely for looks, and possibly temperament. Not for robustness, intelligence, longevity, or a host of other desirable attributes.

Would I blame parents for a child with a genetic disorder? Yes, if it is testable, and they chose not to test. Perhaps blame is too harsh a term, because there may be good reasons for that decision, but it's certainly a term I would use for professional dog breeders that let certain conditions get out of hand. There's nothing inherent in the Labrador breed that requires them to have hip problems, for example. So, yes, I blame breeders for a allowing that to develop.

GDB2222

Dog shows have a lot to answer for. The winners are judged according to how they look, rather than for example how good they always are with children or that kind of thing. There ought to be points for looks and also points for other attributes, including obedience and agility, etc. so, a dog that does not look entirely true to breed can still win if it has other attributes that are outstanding.

GDB2222

Are Wonga still giving away new loans?

lostinrates

GDB2222 wrote: »

LIR and Bugslet, I hear you, but I don't agree entirely. These dogs have been bred almost entirely for looks, and possibly temperament. Not for robustness, intelligence, longevity, or a host of other desirable attributes.

Would I blame parents for a child with a genetic disorder? Yes, if it is testable, and they chose not to test. Perhaps blame is too harsh a term, because there may be good reasons for that decision, but it's certainly a term I would use for professional dog breeders that let certain conditions get out of hand. There's nothing inherent in the Labrador breed that requires them to have hip problems, for example. So, yes, I blame breeders for a allowing that to develop.

I don't know about Danes. Our giants have suffered for breeding for looks away from type, but HAVE been bred tremendously for temperament, its considered very important and health too is taken very, very seriously with in the breed club and society. ( breed clubs are different to kennel club, this is important to understand, breeds do not run on one body though do have one governing body there is a different ethos and attitude in different breeds) its also important to see this happens in different countries differently. Many dog breeds breeders will point out American dogs in their line ups. Not so much in my breed. We've benefitted from good international breeding partly because of wealth. Sadly, the wealth has been a problem.

The problem is, two healthy dogs, like with a spinal issue, can produce a dog who has an anatomical problem. This is different to breeding from dogs with poor hip scores, very different. There is no score for a healthy spine parent that can tell you its offspring might have a spine problem ( yet). If there were then breeders, good breeders would be using it. ATM all you can do is select two dogs who make a good pair and hope. This is a skill, it really is, you have to understand and know or study the health of the lines behind the individuals and assess the dogs infront of you and evaluate their strengths and weaknesses honestly.

Robust, longevity? Well big dog has had health problems, so did her sister, but here is big dog, over her life expectancy age running about. Many would keep her going, try to get her to say, 12. Is that longevity? So keeping health outside her conditions robust?

Bear in mind too these things are complied to some degree for pure breds...not with true comparison, and monitored, often self monitored again with less true comparison,


Same way as special girl in her early twenties was not expected to go, but it never expected her to get old like old girl, a horse much, much smaller than her, special girl was, like giant dogs, too big to live that long.