If YOU have a Bus Pass

zygurat789

2010 wrote: »

They`ll lose out big time because it said in the aricle,

"10 million elderly and disabled people are now in receipt of a free bus pass, and they account for a third of all bus journeys in England".

Cameron has said, if elected, the passes stay.

So we agree on that but just out of curiosity has anyone like the ONS done any work on this point?

Altarf

2010 wrote: »

Local authorities pay for the scheme by reimbursing bus companies for the average cost of a ticket which the free passenger would have bought if they had been paying for their journey themselves.

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/5049/should-all-pensioners-be-given-free-bus-travel

Exactly, they reimburse the bus company for the cost of the ticket the free passenger would have bought if they had been paying for their journey themselves.

If they wouldn't have paid, because they wouldn't travel on the bus if they didn't have a bus pass, the bus company gets nothing.

zygurat789 wrote: »

I suppose you copied this from some governmental explanation

No, the government explanation is here on page 14 -
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3621/travelconcession.pdf

Reimbursement

1.59 TCAs are required by law to reimburse bus operators for carrying concessionary passengers, on the principle that the operators are "no better off and no worse off" by taking part in concessionary travel schemes. The aim is not to subsidise bus operators, but to pay for any increased costs that they have incurred.

1.60 Reimbursement of bus operators is divided into two elements: revenue forgone and net additional costs. Revenue forgone is the reimbursement of fares that operators would have received from concessionary journeys that would have been made in the absence of a scheme. The average fare forgone is generally not the same as the quoted commercial cash fare but should be calculated as an average of all ticket types that would have been available to concessionaires in the absence of the scheme.

1.61 The proportion of observed concessionary journeys that are made purely because of the concession are referred to as ‘generated journeys’. The only extra funding requirement associated with generated journeys should be the net additional costs that bus operators incur from these additional journeys. These are namely wear and tear on buses and possible costs from changes in service frequency or density. In very exceptional cases, net additional costs will include the costs to operators of buying an extra vehicle to cater for generated journeys.

1.62 Calculating concessionary travel reimbursement is predicated on determining what would have happened in the absence of the concessionary scheme and requires TCAs to estimate the following components of reimbursement:
 The fares that operators would have offered and concessionary travellers paid in the absence of the concession
 The proportion of total observed concessionary journeys that would have been made in the absence of the concession
 Any net additional costs that operators have incurred as a result of the concession

zygurat789 wrote: »

So if bus passes are discontinued there will be no money from governmental sources for the bus companies but they will recoup an unknown amount from pensioners now paying full fare who previously had the average fare paid for them via the buspass.

I reckon the bus companies would lose out and have to increase fares.

Nope, the bus companies will (must) be in exactly the same position that they are in now.

Those people that would travel anyway, irrespective of the bus pass will pay the full fare. Those would only travel because of the free bus pass, so won't travel and won't pay.

Exactly the same as the bus companies are being reimbursed now.

2010 wrote: »

They`ll lose out big time because it said in the aricle,

"10 million elderly and disabled people are now in receipt of a free bus pass, and they account for a third of all bus journeys in England".

They won't because the bus companies only get paid for the journeys that people would pay for if there was no bus pass.

2010 wrote: »

Cameron has said, if elected, the passes stay.

Of course they will, the power of the 'grey' vote. But in England, with the state pension age increasing to 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, etc, then unless the local authority (like London has done) funds it, the number of people receiving in will be massively reduced.

2010

No actual factual study has been made on the overall cost of passes.
It`s just an easy target for some MP`s who themselves are quite happy to get free travel but don`t want others to.
If pensioners get on a bus and go somewhere and spend money and at the same time are being active, this all needs to be taken in when assessing the cost.

zygurat789

Altarf wrote: »

Exactly, they reimburse the bus company for the cost of the ticket the free passenger would have bought if they had been paying for their journey themselves.

If they wouldn't have paid, because they wouldn't travel on the bus if they didn't have a bus pass, the bus company gets nothing.



No, the government explanation is here on page 14 -
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3621/travelconcession.pdf

Reimbursement

1.59 TCAs are required by law to reimburse bus operators for carrying concessionary passengers, on the principle that the operators are "no better off and no worse off" by taking part in concessionary travel schemes. The aim is not to subsidise bus operators, but to pay for any increased costs that they have incurred.

1.60 Reimbursement of bus operators is divided into two elements: revenue forgone and net additional costs. Revenue forgone is the reimbursement of fares that operators would have received from concessionary journeys that would have been made in the absence of a scheme. The average fare forgone is generally not the same as the quoted commercial cash fare but should be calculated as an average of all ticket types that would have been available to concessionaires in the absence of the scheme.

1.61 The proportion of observed concessionary journeys that are made purely because of the concession are referred to as ‘generated journeys’. The only extra funding requirement associated with generated journeys should be the net additional costs that bus operators incur from these additional journeys. These are namely wear and tear on buses and possible costs from changes in service frequency or density. In very exceptional cases, net additional costs will include the costs to operators of buying an extra vehicle to cater for generated journeys.

1.62 Calculating concessionary travel reimbursement is predicated on determining what would have happened in the absence of the concessionary scheme and requires TCAs to estimate the following components of reimbursement:
 The fares that operators would have offered and concessionary travellers paid in the absence of the concession
 The proportion of total observed concessionary journeys that would have been made in the absence of the concession
 Any net additional costs that operators have incurred as a result of the concession



Nope, the bus companies will (must) be in exactly the same position that they are in now.

Those people that would travel anyway, irrespective of the bus pass will pay the full fare. Those would only travel because of the free bus pass, so won't travel and won't pay.

Exactly the same as the bus companies are being reimbursed now.



They won't because the bus companies only get paid for the journeys that people would pay for if there was no bus pass.



Of course they will, the power of the 'grey' vote. But in England, with the state pension age increasing to 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, etc, then unless the local authority (like London has done) funds it, the number of people receiving in will be massively reduced.

Yes I understand the principle and I understand what they are trying to achieve but all this is subject to, I quote, "estimate" this should more likely be guestimate and even that would tend to convey a unwarranted degree of accuracy.

The only way I can see to arrive at any information would be a questionnaire based exercise. Now even though I have read the officialese requoted above it is obviously written by a highly paid civil servant earning a large salary and accruing an equally large pension and it is totally confusing so perhaps you could help me:-
If I said my journey was a generated journey when it wasn't would this mean that the operator would get more or less money?
Would the operator getting more or less money be more or less likely to persuade the powers that be to stop bus passes?
Just so that we all know which way to answer if we ever get asked.

Altarf

zygurat789 wrote: »

Now even though I have read the officialese requoted above

To me it seems simply written in plain English, but...

zygurat789 wrote: »

perhaps you could help me:-
If I said my journey was a generated journey when it wasn't would this mean that the operator would get more or less money?
Would the operator getting more or less money be more or less likely to persuade the powers that be to stop bus passes?
Just so that we all know which way to answer if we ever get asked.

If you were ever asked, and that is fantastically unlikely as the information to enable the estimates to be made will be obtained from other sources, if you answered -

"Yes, I would have paid for the ticket if I didn't have a bus pass", then the bus company will get more money, as they would get paid for that ticket.

"No, I would not have paid for the ticket if I didn't have a bus pass" then the bus company will get less money, as they wouldn't get paid for that ticket.

However, answering "Yes" means the government has to pay out more money, meaning that bus pass holders are costing more, so it has a greater incentive to cancel the whole scheme.

Answering "No", although cheaper for the government means that the bus company gets less money, so may cancel the service as it is not profitable. So you keep your free bus pass, but there are no buses to use it on.

Gers

It all sounds very complicated!

As I live in Scotland I got my bus pass last year when I hit 60 years of age. In the very near future I will be ceasing work :j and doing a bit of enjoying myself more.

I intend to visit a lot of places in Scotland that I haven't been to yet - have travelled overseas a lot so it's time I did more here. I hope to do most of this travel by bus/coach and use trains only when necessary.

Be_Happy

Scottish Government has now extended the free bus pass scheme for a further 2 years. According to article, they will reimburse operators 57.1% of single adult fare in 2015/16 and 56.9% in 2016/2017.

(In our area there seems to have been a problem a couple of years ago with drivers automatically issuing tickets to pass holders for final stop on journey, so for a time we had people on bus with clipboards checking how far you were travelling with what was printed on your ticket. Bus companies must have been overclaiming.)

Biggles

pollypenny wrote: »

I think you missed my point about an American telling us what to do,with our free buses.

That's why I've hit the :spam: button on the post.

Gers

Be_Happy wrote: »

Scottish Government has now extended the free bus pass scheme for a further 2 years. According to article, they will reimburse operators 57.1% of single adult fare in 2015/16 and 56.9% in 2016/2017.

(In our area there seems to have been a problem a couple of years ago with drivers automatically issuing tickets to pass holders for final stop on journey, so for a time we had people on bus with clipboards checking how far you were travelling with what was printed on your ticket. Bus companies must have been overclaiming.)

We have to state our destination when boarding, although nothing seems to be recorded on the ticket so I don't know what the value or point is.

Be_Happy

Gers wrote: »

We have to state our destination when boarding, although nothing seems to be recorded on the ticket so I don't know what the value or point is.

We state our destination too, but the ticket clearly shows the destination and is marked 'FREE'.