Just needed to be heard for a little while

elsien

Good on you WaS for standing up for yourself. I know you are very careful what you say about people as you don't like upsetting them, but from an outside perspective BIL sounds like a self centred nightmare. Sending positive thoughts yours and WaSp's way so that you both have the strength to do what you need to do.
Edit - a difficult childhood is not an excuse for carrying on being an irresponsible @rse, if you excuse the language. He is choosing not to help himself and to live the way he does. Background may be a factor, its not everything. You can sympathise with what helped make him as he is without condoning the choices he makes as a responsible adult. Noone can help an alcoholic till tbey are ready to help themselves. All you can do is damage limitation, but protecting you and yours has to come first. Without feeling bad about it, because its not something that is in your power to solve. So be kind to yourself. You are doing what you have to, that's all.

Pyxis

Yes, WaS, we all know how much you and WaSp have tried to help him in the past, and he just wasn't having any of it. You've more than tried, it's made you ill in the past, and you cannot risk it making you ill this time, not when you've been doing so well.

Both you and WaSp have to take care of yourselves, and if that means leaving him to take care of himself, so be it.

Please don't feel guilty. Nobody on here would do any differently. You have nothing to be guilty about. Remember, he has made choices. He has chosen to refuse help or even accept that he needs help. His new girlfriend is no doubt egging him on. They have each other.

Don't you worry. :A

Waves_and_Smiles

His new girlfriend finished an alcohol therapy course last week and they both celebrated by getting drunk and consequently banned from another pub. They now have to drink outside of their village as they are banned everywhere. BIL has been on 3 rehabilitation courses on court orders after getting arrested and has celebrated leaving each course in the same way. He has Liver Cirrhosis and just laughs at the doctors and carries on drinking, he has been this way for 30 years. I also don't like that he is buying the alcohol with MIL's money, his carers allowance doesn't stretch that far. He handles MIL's bank accounts and she trusts him completely.

I hate that my stance is upsetting WaSp, I know it is going to make it awkward for him but he really can tell BIL it is all due to his insane partner if he wants to, I am far past caring what BIL thinks of me. There is also the fact that if he is here drinking with WaSp he isn't with MIL again which is going to leave her afraid at night for the second weekend in a row. I am hoping that if WaSp tells him that he can't meet him that he will stay with her like normal.

It is pretty much in WaSp's hands now. I have no idea if he will meet him or not and can't do more than I have, I do know that he won't bring him back here. I reminded WaSp that everytime he has met him for the last few years that there has been a physical fight and this really isn't a good area for that to happen in. I really expect WaSp would be hurt or end up in a police cell if he goes. I would love to say I am exaggerating but BIL has spent frequent nights sobering up in cells and the last time the only reason WaSp didn't end up there too was I yelled at him to sit down and dealt with the police and pub landlord myself, telling them to take BIL and that we were as horrified as they were and that I would be responsible for a very drunk and angry (at BIL) WaSp. I no longer have the emotional strength to do that and honestly, I have had enough. WaSp says I don't understand the pressure from family relationships and I concede that as mine was so different but I do recognise a potentially dangerous situation and that has to take precedence for me.

Thank you so much for the reassurance, I truly hate talking badly about anyone, it makes me feel very guilty. BIL does have his good points like everyone but I need to keep myself (and WaSp) safe. I have spent many a night with BIL after yet another fight where he has punched walls, self-harmed and screamed and cried and I did everything I could to help him, which is kind of useless when someone is that drunk anyway. I have tried to catch him sober to talk to him but discovered the first thing he does when getting out of bed is down a huge glass of vodka to stop the withdrawal so no hope there either. It takes an awful lot for me to give up on someone, I am rescuer by nature but the fact is BIL just doesn't want to be helped.

elsien

WaSp could always suggest arranging to meet BiL somewhere during the day, on the understanding that its not in a pub and doesn't involve alcohol. BIL will most likely say no, but at least WaSp will have shown willing.
Personally, although I completely understand why you're suggesting it, I think it would be better for WaSp to be honest with family about alcohol and behaviour, rather than you being the excuse. Pressure from family relationships goes both ways, and WaSp saying so far and no further might help people (Mil) to stop making excuses and doing an ostrich impression.
I do know from experience how hard it is to do that, but if BIl keeps piling on the pressure it may come to that anyway.

Waves_and_Smiles

That would be my ideal scenario. WaSp has almost monthly arguments with BIL over the phone about the amount he drinks, telling him to stop phoning unless he is sober. BIL then tells MIL that WaSp won't talk to him (yes, really) and then MIL phones WaSp in tears because she can't cope with the fighting and everything returns to stage one. BIL is very favoured by MIL, he has never cut the apron strings and had his own life (even when married they all lived with MIL because BIL managed to get them evicted from their house for drunken, aggressive behaviour) so she seems to see him as the son who needs the most help and understanding and expects WaSp and SIL to be tolerant of him because he can't help it. In fact, she actually tells WaSp that he can't help it.

I also think that MIL feels a lot of guilt because being the oldest child he took the most abuse from their violent father, fortunately WaSp and SIL were small when she finally left but BIL suffered years of it. Sadly, he can't see that he has become almost a carbon copy of the man who hurt him and has somehow forgotten most of the past and says what a great dad he had and justifies his violence (and therefore justifies himself).

WaSp is caught up in the middle of all of this, not wanting to upset MIL but honestly not caring if he never saw BIL again. He finds it very hard to take a stand which is why this time I have said use me if he wants, if MIL and BIL end up disliking me then so be it but the end of my tether truly has been reached.

Pyxis

Fingers crossed for WaSp
WaS, can you remind me where SIL is? I seem to remember you still have contact with her? I know she's not in a position to help, but it may help to talk to her, too? Maybe?:)

lostinrates

While I can see you mil's care complicates things considerably my opinion is that actually bil is an adult who has not requested help, and has indeed declined it, refused it and very clearly so. I think wasp and any one else in his circle should respect that until /unless his situation changes.

Mil might need a frank talking to about what wasp can be expected to do and wasp might likewise need to take stock.

Whether mil WANTS carers or not and where carers allowance goes should now be a frank conversation between them as a result of these changes of circumstances. No blame or assertions need to be cast just a factual assessment of what WASP can be expected to do and what will happen in the gaps.

Wasp mean while might also need to factor in some down time, being there for two people he loves in two separate locations must be extremely full of worry for him .

Waves_and_Smiles

SIL I am in contact with is BIL's ex-wife. She does understand, she lived with him for 6 years and eventually got a court order to keep him away from her and their child. I might email her actually just to have someone to whine to who knows exactly what I mean.

WaSp's sister fled to the to the other end of the country as soon as she could. She does phone MIL every day and maybe see's her and BIL once every 2-3 years. It is so rare that she visits that I have only met her once in 24 years, we did get on, though. She keeps completely out of the family dynamics (there are several people similar to BIL in the family) and I completely understand why. WaSp was far more caught up with it all when we first met and he has done very well to extract himself from most of it. The only difficulty he really has now is MIL's reaction and the fact he has to talk to BIL about her care, but it is a huge consideration for him to struggle with.

I do agree that MIL needs to see the reality of the situation but at 94 in November I am not sure that she can shift her perception that much. A lot of this needs to come from WaSp who does tend to take the easy for others path and ends up being walked over. There honestly isn't any point in me further asserting my needs because I have done that in the past and WaSp has still gone along with his family wants. It isn't an insult to me but because he is very-non-confrontational and it is easier to deal with upsetting me than it is his family who won't be as rational in their response. I know he also thinks about how old MIL is and he wants her last years to be happy (even if blind to what is really happening), but my argument is this is now becoming at the cost of WaSp and me, which MIL certainly wouldn't want. In mean moments I can't help but think everyone is walking on egg-shells around BIL who doesn't seem to care about anyone very much and after the family upbringing I had I am not prepared to do it again for WaSp's family dynamics.

How is everyone else? I am taking of the thread here (more guilt)?

Pyxis

Keep strong, WaS. Cup of tea time? With something to stop it being so wet?

whitewing

WaS,

I am sorry that you and WaSp are going through such a rough. scary time at the moment. You know that we fully support you in everything you do, and we know that you always act in the best long-term interests of everybody.

If WaSp does decide to meet up with BIL at some point in the future in your town, I think that you need to not worry about WaSp. As a vulnerable little girl, you managed to survive an enormous amount of ongoing abuse. I am sure that WaSp has learnt a lot from seeing how you deal with the aftermath, and will keep himself safe, even if not entirely happy. That is the only thing I would be careful about if I were in your situation - that you don't turn a genuine worry into catastrophising.

Chin up, girl, it used to feel to me that the harder I tried and the better I got, the more the world tried to pay me back by throwing something else unexpected at me. It isn't personal though. Remember that there are lots of people here sending you positive thoughts and good wishes to get you through the ups and downs. You are doing brilliantly and you will keep on being brilliant because we all love you so much (even if you are a virtual friend), because of the inspiration that you are to us.