A Yes vote means better jobs for young people in Scotland

IveSeenTheLight

Generali wrote: »

Nice try. To stick to what we were discussing, the Nationalists seem to be trying to do what Nationalists across the world do, stoke hatred of the 'oppressors' and turn that into popular support. My fear is that the legacy of this campaign will be an entrenchment of something that is already a serious problem.

Nice Try yourself Generali.

I cite once again the words of Alex Salmond in the White Paper

I also believe that the bonds of family, friendship, history and culture between Scotland and the other parts of the British Isles are precious. England, Wales and Northern Ireland will always be our family, friends and closest neighbours.

It is not the nationalists in these forums that are trying to incite hatred or racism.

Generali

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Nice Try yourself Generali.

I cite once again the words of Alex Salmond in the White Paper



It is not the nationalists in these forums that are trying to incite hatred or racism.

I didn't say that you were trying to incite racism as clearly you're not.

For someone who writes clearly and interestingly elsewhere on this board you are boringly on message when it comes to Nationalism. Everyone knows that loads of Scots hate the English apart from you it seems.

The Scots know it and the English know it.

IveSeenTheLight

Generali wrote: »

I didn't say that you were trying to incite racism as clearly you're not.

My apologies, as a self professed supporter of Independence and Nationalist, I must have misinterpreted your quote below.

Generali wrote: »

the Nationalists seem to be trying to do what Nationalists across the world do, stoke hatred of the 'oppressors' and turn that into popular support.

To which I responded that it is not the nationalists in these forums that are bringing up "hatred" or "racism" against the English.

Generali wrote: »

For someone who writes clearly and interestingly elsewhere on this board you are boringly on message when it comes to Nationalism.

Reflectively, I guess it's a defensive mechanism when someone attacks the concept of your messages as having a hatred or racist undertone which I clearly am not, then one feels the need to try and inject a bit of realism into the subject.

Generali wrote: »

. Everyone knows that loads of Scots hate the English apart from you it seems.

The Scots know it and the English know it.

I think sss555s summed it up brilliantly in regards to how the question is portrayed.

I tried to as well by referencing Tottenham against Arsenal and I could have extrapolated this further and say they join up against (Italy / Uraguy / Costa Rica) P.S. I saw Gary Lineker wearing an Italian top for the Costa Rica game.

It depends on the context of when and where the question is asked.

I could go on and refer to your new homeland as having a "Hatred" or "Racism" against the English as well with their Pommie references.

Are these Pommie / Jock's references racists or cite hatred, I would say not, it can be jovial banter, but then I guess that depends on the receiving ends perception.

We could consider why the IRA attacked England and not Scotland nor Wales

We could consider the Anti-English resentment from Ireland, France, Germany, US etc.

Finally, you mentioned Anglophobia and I wondered why there wasn't a "Scotophobia". It turns out there is, but it seems it's just the "English" that have a Scotophobia from around the world.

Why is it the Scots only have one country listed as "Anti-Scots" yet the English have a number?

There may be some element of Anti-English mindset in Scotland which I whole heartedly disagree with, but this is definitely not the majority of our nations perception.

BillJones

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

We could consider the Anti-English resentment from Ireland, France, Germany, US etc.

Ah, yes, this old anti-England slur from a scot...

The French do not support you, and are not generally anti-English. Half of my family are French, I spend much of my time there, and when there, am happy to discuss politics, in French, over a drink.

Without fail, when I've asked about this supposed pro-scots bias, I've been met with bafflement, bemusement, or just a simply spoken correction. It simply does not exist.

Why do you invent these anti-English stories, then pretend that you are not anti-English? Why not just be honest about why you do not want to be associated with us?

As a dear Scots friend once lamented to me, "Why do my country so often define ourselves only by our dislike of the English. Haven't we anything else that binds us together?"

You presumably believe that she was imagining the whole thing...

IveSeenTheLight

BillJones wrote: »

Ah, yes, this old anti-England slur from a scot...

You couldn't be more wrong.....

It was Generali (Englishman residing in Australia) that used the term Anglophobia in this thread and a google search derived this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia

No Scotsman involved, I just picked out the countires it referenced.

BillJones

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

No Scotsman involved, I just picked out the countires it referenced.

You aren't a scotchman? You did not post the slur that the English are disliked by people such as the French?

IveSeenTheLight

BillJones wrote: »

You aren't a scotchman? You did not post the slur that the English are disliked by people such as the French?

This is an interesting point.
I've cited a reference to Anglophobia of which you are rejecting that the French do not have a dislike of the English.
This is the point I am making similarly about the Scots people.

There may be banter between the two nations and I have no doubt there is a small minority of extremists in all walks of life.
I simply can't believe that 66% of Scot's have a hatred or racism against English people.

This has to be derived to make a newsworthy report and not in fact reality.

Reminds me of drop the dead donkey where the reporter put a teddy on the demolished building to exaggerate the issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2bvR3BT_g

BillJones

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

This is an interesting point.
I've cited a reference to Anglophobia of which you are rejecting that the French do not have a dislike of the English.
This is the point I am making similarly about the Scots people.

You were given a survey that suggested otherwise, and have had reports from people that they've experienced otherwise. That tends to require something more than "Oh, I doubt that" as a rebuttal.

On the other hand, you've simply asserted, with zero evidence, a supposed antipathy towards the English by several nations, with no evidence at all.

It's a very poor debating technique, to ignore actual evidence, and to respond with bald assertions, which people will inevitably call you on.

zagubov

I think we're getting carried away here. Unsurprisingly in journalism, the headlines and content don't quite match.

These surveys show two things:
that pre-devolution, in 1999, 800 people agreed that many Scots were racists without quantifying how many. If two-thirds said many Scots had red hair, that wouldn't make most Scots red-haired. Good sample size, non-quantified question.

In 2003 almost 100 primary school kids in an all-white village 30 miles from Glasgow were questioned whether they'd vote an English person into the Scottish parliament. 1/3 said they wouldn't. However in 2011 when they were old enough to vote, they're voting in English MSPs in numbers proportional to their population (well at least the SNP voters are).

Interesting question, ridiculous sample size. The study's authors explicity say it's too small for statistical significance, and considering the overwhelmingly urban nature of the Scottish population, it's not necessarily a representative sample.

So yes I am concerned because any anti-English prejudice is too much, but these surveys don't prove such problems are currently widespread or growing. They seem to show that immature people show prejudices yet when they are mature enough to vote they seem to have shed those prejudices.

I'm sure the bias of the 11-12 years olds in the survey is real, but I fail to see how this translates into the election results of 2011 where the public voted in many English SNP MSPs who stand for the end of London rule. How anyone can see this as blood- and soil nationalism driven by racism rather than civic nationalism driven by disillusionment with a remote government is beyond me.

Leanne1812

Bills can it not be true that some scots hate the English and some English hate the scots? I believe there's a bit of anti on both sides....

I have no idea what nationality you are but can I ask have you encountered this personally? I'm Scottish and my husband is English. He's lived in Scotland for over 25 years and only very occasionally has he come across anti English feeling. Usually it's football related and he takes it as banter. It's never caused him to be upset. Maybe it depends on how easily offended people are?