Grant of Confirmation

Rosysmudge

buddy9 said:

Rosysmudge said:

Hoping someone here can help.  This thread has been absolutely invaluable!

I am in the process of completing the C1 for my late dad’s estate.  It is a fairly straightforward estate, except for the fact that my late mothers Will included an in-Will liferent trust for her share of their property. The in-Will trust named me, my brother and my dad as trustees with Dad having life use as the liferenter.  It is for the property only, with no other assets and terminates on the death of my father. 

Mum predeceased Dad and her estate was granted Confirmation in 2014, just after her death.  We’re awaiting the title deed from mum’s solicitor at the time, but I think the title deeds have remained in mum and dads’ names as joint owners.  Dad was advised they did not require to be changed as long as they were kept alongside mums’ confirmation as her will advises of the establishment of the liferent trust.  Mum and Dad also did an Evacuation of Special destination at the time they set up their wills which I have. 

The estate value is under IHT threshold so is an excepted estate.

·       Property valued at £180,000

·       Liferent trust value from mums will for one half of the property - £90,000. 

I am struggling with how I should present this on the C1.  I know for IHT purposes that the value of any trust must be included in the estate. 

Questions

·       Where on the C1 should this information be included and what wording should be used? Should it be shown in the inventory or elsewhere and simply included in the relevant figures’ boxes (net or gross?)

·       Should the value of the trust in the C1 be presented as its entire value of my mother’s share held in trust or one third which is what my father’s share of the trust would be? 

I’m really trying to avoid using a solicitor for this but appreciate trusts can make things complicated.  I also want to avoid the dreaded IHT400 but I’m confident that an in-will trust does not require separate reporting if the trust value is under £250k and the entire estate remains under the IHT threshold once the trust value is included.

Has anyone done a C1 with a liferent trust?  Any advice appreciated before I shell out for legal advice.  I’m sure all the answers are out there in the guidance but putting it all together is the headache!  

This would be my understanding with respect to your circumstances.

The Evacuation of the Special destination will have removed a previous survivorship situation. The Grant of Confirmation for mum’s estate presumably includes in its inventory, mum’s half share of the house.

Dad was then an owner of a half share and had a liferent allowing continuing occupation.

There are surviving trustees so no need to refer to the liferent in (or as a note to) the inventory.

I would agree it is an excepted estate, settled property less than £250k and if gross total is below IHT threshold.

Your father’s half ownership share of the house should be shown in the inventory in the normal way. But I cannot see how your father would have a third interest in the trust. He was a trustee not a beneficiary.

The value of the house share held in trust should be used in the IHT calculations on page 5.

Thanks so much @buddy9.   Nearing completion of the doc and looking to submit in the next couple of weeks.  One other question.  I know from the Scottish Courts and Tribunals page that the Will and Death certificate for my father will require to be submitted with the C1.  Given the foregoing as regards the liferent trust, should I be including my mothers Confirmation document and the Evacuation of Special Destination? If I do include these, will they require docketing in the same manner as the Will? (That's two questions, I know!)

buddy9

Rosysmudge said

Thanks so much @buddy9.   Nearing completion of the doc and looking to submit in the next couple of weeks.  One other question.  I know from the Scottish Courts and Tribunals page that the Will and Death certificate for my father will require to be submitted with the C1.  Given the foregoing as regards the liferent trust, should I be including my mothers Confirmation document and the Evacuation of Special Destination? If I do include these, will they require docketing in the same manner as the Will? (That's two questions, I know!)

no to both questions.

but you will need both these documents for a conveyancing solicitor.

benin

I am completing C1 for the estate of my late mother. It will be an Excepted Estate. Among her assets was a collection of 30 bottles of whisky valued at £10,000 which she kept at home.

Should I

• Just add this to the total value of the house contents.

• List it seperately as "30 bottles of whisky"

• List each individual bottle and its value

Thank you in advance.

buddy9

benin said:

I am completing C1 for the estate of my late mother. It will be an Excepted Estate. Among her assets was a collection of 30 bottles of whisky valued at £10,000 which she kept at home.

Should I

• Just add this to the total value of the house contents.

• List it seperately as "30 bottles of whisky"

• List each individual bottle and its value

Thank you in advance.

If it is a specialist collection and has a resale value of £10,000 I would be inclined to list the 30 bottle collection as a single item.

Are you confident that the collection would achieve £10,000 on resale?

benin

buddy9 said:

benin said:

I am completing C1 for the estate of my late mother. It will be an Excepted Estate. Among her assets was a collection of 30 bottles of whisky valued at £10,000 which she kept at home.

Should I

• Just add this to the total value of the house contents.

• List it seperately as "30 bottles of whisky"

• List each individual bottle and its value

Thank you in advance.

If it is a specialist collection and has a resale value of £10,000 I would be inclined to list the 30 bottle collection as a single item.

Are you confident that the collection would achieve £10,000 on resale?

Thank you buddy9.

The £10k is the total of the average price each individual bottle acheived at auction, the last time it appeared in auction, before the date of my mothers death. One bottle hasn't been at auction since January 2021 but the majority have been at auction in the last few months. The second hand whisky market has been on the slide since April 2022 so I'm not confident I will receive the £10k when I sell after Confirmation but it seemed the most appropriate valuation method.

benin

I am due to submit a C1(2022) for my late mother who had heritable estate in Scotland on the Land Register, savings in Scotland and England and shares in England. Gifts within 7 years have to be accounted for. It should be an Excepted Estate.

I've spent the last two days reading the whole thread from post 1 and copying and pasting posts relevant to my situation into a Word document.

It includes

• Suggested wordings for the various declarations.
• Which total goes into which box
• GhibliFan's completed C1(2022)
• Much of the wit and wisdom of buddy9
• Various screen shots of completed documents
  

It does not include

• Anything on Sassines
• Anything on intestate.

There is a fair bit of repetition so the final document comes in at a hefty 40 pages although much of this is white space. If anyone would like a copy send me a message with your email address.

benin

A quick question if anyone can help. My late mother owned shares in an American company which is listed on the New York Stock exchange. The shares were held in her online ISA which is based in England.

The question is should the value of these shares be recorded as property held in England and Wales or property held Elsewhere?

lighthev

Many thanks to all here who've shared. I'm off to the Sheriff Office, to hand in completed C1, with covering letter. Really would not of had a clue without the threads on this forum. Hopefully I'll not be back here! And thankfully I know I can ask here if needed. So many thanks! 

Bigfurrydoggie

Does anyone have any experience of wording, for either cover letter or the declaration page, for the situation where the deceased lived most of their life in Scotland, had a Scottish will, but moved for the last couple of years to England?  The will contains the statement "I declare that my domicile is Scottish".  Any view or guidance would be appreciated.  

buddy9

Bigfurrydoggie said:

Does anyone have any experience of wording, for either cover letter or the declaration page, for the situation where the deceased lived most of their life in Scotland, had a Scottish will, but moved for the last couple of years to England?  The will contains the statement "I declare that my domicile is Scottish".  Any view or guidance would be appreciated.  

Declaration of intent of domicile in a will might give a strong indication but is not definitive. 

If Confirmation is to be applied for in respect of a person with ‘no fixed or known domicile except that they were domiciled in Scotland’, application is made to the Commissary Office in Edinburgh. 

In the C1 address section show firstly the deceased’s most recent address outside Scotland, and secondly a previous Scottish address along with the words ‘a native of Scotland’.

On page 2 domicile - use the words shown in form C3.

If the clerk is not satisfied regarding domicile, you could be asked to submit a special warrant.

EDIT. para 2 of page 2 would presumably also contain an update on will address difference.