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Help to Work Programme comes in today

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Comments

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 2,187 Forumite
    JeLaw wrote: »
    By your own admission your company would turn down a candidate applying for a role as a cleaner for being over-qualified.

    No, we'd not. We don't employ cleaners.

    For the jobs I recruit for, I value advanced qualifications such as doctorates in maths and physics.

    If someone with a doctorate wants a cleaning job, they will just have to try that bit harder than the other candidates to show that they will be committed to the job. We all face prejudices of one sort or another, a prejudice against overqualification is at least rational, and very likely far less of a problem than the more obvious prejudices that many people face.
  • silentkiller
    silentkiller Posts: 240 Forumite
    JeLaw wrote: »
    So it's fair to tar everyone with the same brush? Talk about discrimination!

    I think the problem for your company is that at the moment claimants are forced to apply for job after job - regardless of whether they meet the requirements. Also, there does exist a minority of long-term unemployed who don't want to work. It's the genuine jobseekers who are suffering because of this.

    To be honest, it needs to acknowledged that some people are more or less unemployable (whether because of unwillingness or inability - the latter could be overcome with appropriate training or education).

    Let's have the government focus in the first instance on helping the majority of unemployed people who do want to work. As others have pointed out on this thread, the current system serves only to hurt these genuine claimants - as the unwilling know how to play the system and/or turn to crime.

    I want to emphasise that I think work experience would be fantastic. But if longer than a few weeks this needs to be paid. Many unemployed people would love the chance of employment.

    To combat employer concerns of unsuitable or unwilling candidates, a trial (unpaid) period of a few weeks would be useful. And in terms of my suggestion of positive discrimination. I'm not suggesting the company takes on any old claimant. It should operate in a similar vein as the scheme for disabled applicants. That is anyone who meets the required job specifications is automatically granted an interview - and perhaps the first choice for the role should be the unemployed candidate (when more than one candidate is suitable for the position).

    Btw, I think it's wonderful that your company is open-minded enough to employ people that other companies might overlook as "too experienced". That really is to be applauded and we need more companies to do this.


    It's my experience - whether it can work for other people is fine, but we do not operate that way and prefer to deal with giving people a job if we think they are good enough and PAYING them, than using them for free and discarding them at the end of their term.
    The truth is out there... and I want to believe
  • I agree that it would be beneficial to get the unemployed used to the structure of a working day, but I can't help but feel that if they can't find work after two years, it'd be better for them to undergo some basic training to make them more employable? Such as classes in maths, english and computing?
  • Bubblesmum
    Bubblesmum Posts: 1,778 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Morning

    I am currently on long term sick due to a disability since birth, and will be looking for a new role when I reach a level of recovery as I cant go back to my present role as its making my symptoms worse (I was an outreach worker and I'm mobility impaired) in the meantime I may have to face ESA.

    This is rather ironical for me as I am an occupational therapist supporting people back into work, who have been unemployed for a long time.

    I have supported people on the Work Programme and under the previous Government run a Community Task Force Programme which was the forerunner to this new project, it was said at the time there was a DWP plan to extend this to all age groups. As young people had to do six weeks of volunteer work or be fined.

    I faced anger from young people who felt that they were being made to more practical support and financial grants for training is often what is needed. I would love to see this work experience rewarded by at least the minimum wage if not the living ( but I digress).

    When I worked with those on the CTF I saw clients working so hard applying for roles, job hunting was a full time job, but with little success, having been offered this programme, some, entered it willing with enthusiasm, some reluctantly and with sceptisim and lastly those angry that they were being made to work. In all cases I saw over the weeks, people transform from the journey from despair and low self esteem to bucket loads of self worth and new drive to find work, hope, for a good number many found roles before the placement ended, other just after and others recruited by the community project itself in a paid role. For others of course there was drop out and non engagement.

    Feedback from the successful clients were:
    *they felt wanted and valued in a work environment
    * They were gaining new skills and experiences, and seeing that their were other work options
    * Didn't feel socially isolated, filling in application forms in front of a computer
    * For others they got out of bed - and had structure to their day,
    * Some had dropped out of school and never worked, so had no idea that it is the norm and work behavior to arrive somewhere on time, do personal appointments in your lunch hour or weekends etc
    * gained support and mentoring from individuals in the workplace
    * References from those you are working for.
    * For some it gave them energy and motivation to get out of this vicious circle.

    I appreciate that being long term unemployed is complex and for many this type of support is not appropriate and seems to be a punishment not to an opportunity.

    But having over the years experienced been both the professional and the receiver, I would grab this opportunity with open arms.
    As a dear MSE friend says “keep plodding” or
    What does the saying say.... When life hands you lemons, make lemonade
    Or as my Mum would say, brush yourself down, tomorrow is another day or
    Fake it, to you Make It

    Please say hello my new diary: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6578460/still-dancing-to-blow-the-debt-clouds-away
  • JeLaw
    JeLaw Posts: 172 Forumite
    Busymom - thanks for explaining more about how the schemes work.

    I hope it didn't across that I was arguing with you. That wasn't my intention. I'm just slightly concerned that the government aren't sincere about helping people back to work (or into work if they've never worked before).

    If the schemes work as you say, that would be good and I can see the possible benefits. I suppose I'm rather cynical - not of you but of the government.

    I do hope that people who've been unable to work due to illness or disability aren't included as the long-term unemployed who have made no attempt to find work or training. It does appear that many disability claimants are being pushed onto JSA despite not being ready for and/or capable of work.

    Bubblesmum - I'm sorry to hear about your current health issues. I really hope things get better for you.

    The schemes you describe do sound positive and I wouldn't be opposed to them. That sort of scheme wouldn't have much use for an older claimant however - someone who might have worked for years before being made redundant or becoming ill. They already possess skills and experience. So I hope they won't be forced onto pointless schemes (for them). So long as all work programme and similar schemes are targeted, they could be of some use.
  • JeLaw
    JeLaw Posts: 172 Forumite
    BillJones wrote: »
    No, we'd not. We don't employ cleaners.

    For the jobs I recruit for, I value advanced qualifications such as doctorates in maths and physics.

    If someone with a doctorate wants a cleaning job, they will just have to try that bit harder than the other candidates to show that they will be committed to the job. We all face prejudices of one sort or another, a prejudice against overqualification is at least rational, and very likely far less of a problem than the more obvious prejudices that many people face.

    I agree with you to an extent that prejudice against over-qualification is rational. Most likely the candidate isn't truly committed to the job and would leave as soon as they find something they really want.

    But what do you suggest people in that situation do? They must apply for any job or lose their benefits. Some areas of academia have few jobs available (and many of these are contract-based).

    And this problem affects those in other employment areas too. A candidate doesn't have to possess a PhD to face similar discrimination. Someone with years of experience in a particular industry under their belt faces discrimination from employers for being "too experienced" or "too old".

    So people either have to lie in their applications about their long-term commitment to a job, or have no money to live on. Please give me your solution. Redundancy, illness, caring responsibilities, and other valid reasons for being out of work - sometimes long-term. All these things happen to people.

    I'd like to add that some people are genuine in terms of commitment when applying for a role (whether cleaner or not) that some people (employer included) would consider too junior for them.
  • Bubblesmum
    Bubblesmum Posts: 1,778 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Also I am not a lazy person, I have got myself onto a college course which starts in September, I will be doing a BTEC Level 2 in Animal Care & hopefully progressing on to Level 3 in Animal Management next year
    Well done! What an exciting opportunity for you, when supporting others in your position into work, I know employers like catteries, kennels, animal charities and large veterinary practices all welcomed these qualifications.

    Also if you want to try and get short term employment, this commitment will be interesting to those who need extra help over the holiday periods.....
    As a dear MSE friend says “keep plodding” or
    What does the saying say.... When life hands you lemons, make lemonade
    Or as my Mum would say, brush yourself down, tomorrow is another day or
    Fake it, to you Make It

    Please say hello my new diary: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6578460/still-dancing-to-blow-the-debt-clouds-away
  • Bubblesmum
    Bubblesmum Posts: 1,778 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Arranging your own voluntary work..... especially researching and finding one suitable to a career change.

    As someone who was arranging placements on the previous government community task scheme re voluntary work and currently as a mental health Occupational Therapist supporting long term people back intro work, those people wishing to do this were heartily encouraged and supported, as it it had a positive effect on that persons self esteem and ownership on their journey, and enabled me to support more people. In most cases those people went on to gain work quickly,
    As a dear MSE friend says “keep plodding” or
    What does the saying say.... When life hands you lemons, make lemonade
    Or as my Mum would say, brush yourself down, tomorrow is another day or
    Fake it, to you Make It

    Please say hello my new diary: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6578460/still-dancing-to-blow-the-debt-clouds-away
  • Bubblesmum
    Bubblesmum Posts: 1,778 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    JeLaw wrote: »
    Busymom - thanks for explaining more about how the schemes work.

    I hope it didn't across that I was arguing with you. That wasn't my intention. I'm just slightly concerned that the government aren't sincere about helping people back to work (or into work if they've never worked before).

    If the schemes work as you say, that would be good and I can see the possible benefits. I suppose I'm rather cynical - not of you but of the government.

    I do hope that people who've been unable to work due to illness or disability aren't included as the long-term unemployed who have made no attempt to find work or training. It does appear that many disability claimants are being pushed onto JSA despite not being ready for and/or capable of work.

    Bubblesmum - I'm sorry to hear about your current health issues. I really hope things get better for you.

    The schemes you describe do sound positive and I wouldn't be opposed to them. That sort of scheme wouldn't have much use for an older claimant however - someone who might have worked for years before being made redundant or becoming ill. They already possess skills and experience. So I hope they won't be forced onto pointless schemes (for them). So long as all work programme and similar schemes are targeted, they could be of some use.
    Firstly thank you for your best wishes

    Your view that it will not help older claimants, is not one that I have had in the last two years working with all age groups... for example a Mum in her fifities with children who have flown the nest and now need to look for work, their last job 15 years ago, they use to work on packaging lines in factories which have since closed.

    I actively encouraged them to find voluntary roles for many of the reasons I said, in the case of the example given this lady went and worked in a charity shop a few hours a week, it got her out of the house, gave her different team working skills, she learnt how to use electronic tills, and provide customer service.... that led her on to full time work in a local retailer.

    We are all unique people, with complex lives, some of us, will milk the system for all its worth, some of us will have years of bad luck. Some will grab every opportunity offered with relish, and others will reject for often very deep and complicated reasons. But the one thing I have learnt both as a disabled person and as a health professional, its a mixture of many different support mechanisms that lift a person out of a dark place to one with hope. What works for one person will not work for another....
    As a dear MSE friend says “keep plodding” or
    What does the saying say.... When life hands you lemons, make lemonade
    Or as my Mum would say, brush yourself down, tomorrow is another day or
    Fake it, to you Make It

    Please say hello my new diary: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6578460/still-dancing-to-blow-the-debt-clouds-away
  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 2,187 Forumite
    JeLaw wrote: »
    But what do you suggest people in that situation do? They must apply for any job or lose their benefits. Some areas of academia have few jobs available (and many of these are contract-based).

    In that situation they should of course apply, as it's a condition of their continued receipt of benefits. They should then do their best to get the job.
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