Teacher - leaving one profession to start a new one... Complications ensue!

jem16

innovate wrote: »

I do blame teachers for the incorrect use of there, their, they're, and all the stupid "would of" and "should of", as well as for people's inability to work out %ages and people not knowing the meaning of AER and APR at the age of 18. Don't even get me going on the use of apostrophes vs plurals. All totally basic stuff, doesn't need a university education to know the right way of spelling, and to know basic maths.
But if you do have university education, you would (/should) ensure the basics as a matter of cause.

I only blame teachers to about 50% though - the other 50% of blame goes to the parents.

Even teachers can't work miracles I'm afraid.

All of the above may be basic to you but for some people it may as well be double Dutch as they just don't have that basic ability no matter how good the teacher is.

ViolaLass

DStu wrote: »

I've been avoiding this one, as I have been ganged up on by teachers for my 'off the cuff' comments in the past.

But, did you really just compare a career in teaching as being as skilled as a medical doctor? (I'm assuming medical, but really my exclamation would apply to any other kinda of doctorate)
:rotfl:

I think you may be confused.
Doctors can teach...and teachers can have doctorates...but to say all teachers are on an equal footing with doctors, in terms of skill and knowledge? Come on.

I'll accept that there are levels of complexity within each profession and that not all levels in one are equivalent to all levels in another. I also used the word 'doctor' very loosely whereas it can, of course, cover a lot of different categories all the way from GP to highly specialist surgeon, which, I assume, require different levels of training and capability (I say I assume because I don't know more about being a doctor than your average person).

However, I would argue that being a good teacher is much more comparable to some level of doctoring than it is to operating a checkout!

"Doctors can teach". Actually, I imagine plenty of them would be rubbish at teaching (as I imagine plenty of teachers would be rubbish at being doctors). The level of skill and knowledge required to be very good at teaching (and why would we aim for anything less) is, I think, unappreciated by some sections of society (not saying you in particular, just a general point). When it was compared to operating a checkout, I was as bemused as some other posters but, it seems, for the opposite reason - how can anyone even begin to say that it's comparable?

eskbanker - wasn't picking on you in particular and no offence taken, it's just that I've noticed that some people have higher standards of teachers writing on public fora. I'm still deciding what I make of this - shouldn't we ALL model good etiquette and writing to the younger generation regardless of our professions?

DStu

ViolaLass wrote: »

"Doctors can teach". Actually, I imagine plenty of them would be rubbish at teaching

ViolaLass, I won't harp on.
But just a word of warning, many who have gone through the gruelling process of an academic doctorate would take great offence to this.
I think you're segregating the term "Doctors" and applying it to medical professionals. But you should realise that there are many Doctors teaching at university level, and can be considered experts in their respective fields.

You appear to have taken great offence to a comment that clearly wasn't even intended in the manner in which you took it. Furthermore, in the process of venting your offence, you have wildly generalised and criticised other people's professions.
You appear to consider yourself a hardworking teacher :T that's great. But do you really require gratification or recognition from an online forum?

This thread seems to have veered very off topic.

BillJones

ViolaLass wrote: »

That poster's point was that if we say that it's not OK for non-teachers to comment on teachers' working lives then the same would logically extend to not being allowed to comment on checkout service if we haven't experienced that job.

I'd disagree with you on that point, as it really does seem like double standards. You can't say that people don't get to comment on your job, but then still say that you get to comment on others that you've not done.

Have you ever, I wonder, commented on investment bankers pay and work? I ask as it's probably a similar step up above yours in terms of complexity, as a manual job is below yours, yet no-one seems to call for people not to comment on what I do.

However, I would argue that being a good teacher is much more comparable to some level of doctoring than it is to operating a checkout!

Having taught and operated a checkout, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Teaching was always simple in my experience, you are mainly explaining a subject, in which you should be truly expert, in as clear a way as possible, tailoring the explanation to your audience.

I'll admit, I only taught at university level, but it was definitely still teaching.

ViolaLass

DStu wrote: »

ViolaLass, I won't harp on.
But just a word of warning, many who have gone through the gruelling process of an academic doctorate would take great offence to this.
I think you're segregating the term "Doctors" and applying it to medical professionals. But you should realise that there are many Doctors teaching at university level, and can be considered experts in their respective fields.

Yes, I meant medical professionals, not people with doctorates. Apologies if that wasn't clear. Generally when I talk about teachers, doctors etc I mean the job not the qualification. I wasn't talking about people with PhDs in any way (although I appreciate that medical doctors and those who hold PhDs can overlap). I thought it was clear that I was talking about medical doctors given that I mentioned GPs and surgeons. Actually, it was your comment at 9:04 that appeared to conflate medical doctors with those who hold PhDs.

Yes, many medicals doctors and PhDs holders are very good teachers. I still hold that plenty of medical doctors would be less good at teaching - that's all I was saying! (ditto for anyone switching into a different profession).

I'm not criticising doctors in saying this (not intentionally). Why should they be good at teaching? It's often not part of their job, just as treating pre-eclampsia isn't part of mine.

I don't require recognition personally but I'm still going to stand up for the teaching profession. My comment about checkout workers was also not intended to offend, only to indicate a profession that I thought it would be more reasonable to compare teaching to in terms of the level of skill and knowledge required (although the specific skills and knowledge required are generally different). I don't see why that point would offend - when I was a waitress, I regarded it as a job that I wanted to do well but not on a par in difficulty with many other professions.

I find it can be very difficult to defend teaching sometimes without it coming back to, for example, 'but you get long holidays' (Not saying you said this yourself). Equally, medical doctors can earn a lot more than I do. Does that mean they're not ever allowed to complain/comment on their working conditions?

By the way, I haven't taken 'great offence' at all, I've merely been responding to points made by you and others.

ViolaLass

BillJones wrote: »

Have you ever, I wonder, commented on investment bankers pay and work? I ask as it's probably a similar step up above yours in terms of complexity, as a manual job is below yours, yet no-one seems to call for people not to comment on what I do.

This will sound like I'm being facile but honestly, no, I never have commented on bankers etc even as it's been very fashionable to do so. I'm sure there are those who have made terrible mistakes but I really don't think I know or understand enough about that area to have much of an opinion. I certainly can't be confident that I would have avoided those errors had I been there.

True, people don't tend to call on others not to comment on what bankers do - maybe they should. I certainly don't think that teaching is the ONLY profession that gets commented on by those who have not done it, far from it. And I don't think that only those who have taught should be able to comment on it but I think there are some people (pointing no fingers at this thread, this is a general comment) that would benefit from remembering that perhaps they don't know everything about a certain profession GIVEN that they have not experienced it and might consider therefore tempering the strength and certainty of their opinions.

BillJones wrote: »

Having taught and operated a checkout, we'll have to agree to disagree there. Teaching was always simple in my experience, you are mainly explaining a subject, in which you should be truly expert, in as clear a way as possible, tailoring the explanation to your audience.

I'll admit, I only taught at university level, but it was definitely still teaching.

It's difficult to know what to say here - do we have to compare a list of jobs we've each done? I've operated a checkout too, it really wasn't hard and took perhaps an hour of explanation and practice, all told, to be able to do 90% of what the job would require. How is that comparable to teaching? Yes, teachers need to be experts in their field and need to explain as clearly as possible (not an insignificant skill in the first place!) but they also need to manage behaviour, mark clearly and usefully, give constructive feedback, be able to explain things in many different ways etc (although I appreciate that the first in that list may not have been relevant to you as a university teacher). I also think university teaching is different (different, not inferior) to school teaching because you are dealing with a different audience - something akin to the change between GCSE and A-level.

If it were as easy as operating a checkout, the latter would require years of training or people could become teachers in a day. Neither is the case. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

meer53

ViolaLass, i'd stop digging now if i were you.

People train and get qualifications for all sorts of jobs, some more than others, it's not exclusive to teachers.

BillJones

ViolaLass wrote: »

It's difficult to know what to say here - do we have to compare a list of jobs we've each done? I've operated a checkout too, it really wasn't hard and took perhaps an hour of explanation and practice, all told, to be able to do 90% of what the job would require. How is that comparable to teaching?

Well, I suppose it's about an hour's more training than my teachers appeared to have had...

I don't think that you are even close to the truth, by the way, when you claim that teachers need to be experts in their field. Many of them don't have a doctorate in the subject, let alone enough postdoctoral experience to claim expertise.

In your case, for example, what ave you done in the field in which you teach? Many teachers seem to have never actually worked or researched in their field at all. I had teachers that were straight out of university, for example.

ViolaLass

BillJones wrote: »

Well, I suppose it's about an hour's more training than my teachers appeared to have had...

I don't think that you are even close to the truth, by the way, when you claim that teachers need to be experts in their field. Many of them don't have a doctorate in the subject, let alone enough postdoctoral experience to claim expertise.

In your case, for example, what ave you done in the field in which you teach? Many teachers seem to have never actually worked or researched in their field at all. I had teachers that were straight out of university, for example.

But that was what you said in your previous post! I was agreeing with you!

meer53 - yes, lots of people get qualifications for different jobs. I have no idea what that has to do with what I've been saying.

It appears some of you think that I think teachers are special above all other professions, which isn't what I've been saying at all. I don't think we're communicating and I will withdraw now as it's difficult to have a debate in these circumstances.

Pinhead2014

Why is this thread in a Bank Accounts forum?