Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

sgtivypie

Hi everyone,

yesterday I received a court summons from Northern Rail for not purchasing a ticket back in October. They have stated that they are claiming the £5.60 fare plus £100 compensation. I haven't received any penalty notices or anything like that since the incident in October. I have been asked to tick one of 3 options on the form:
1. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and would like the court to deal with the matter in my absence. Also that I submit a statement of mitigation and financial circumstances.
2. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and will attend court.
3. I intend to plead not guilty. The case will be adjourned until a new hearing date when witnesses/solicitor can attend.

I'm really not sure what to tick. Please read my statement of mitigation below that I am at the moment intending to submit.

On the 31st October 2013 I travelled from Hindley to Manchester Victoria by train. I had just started a new job contracted to Network Rail based at Manchester Picadilly train station and this was my first time ever travelling to Manchester by train. On arrival at the station at Hindley I saw that the ticket office was open but there wasn’t a member of staff sat behind the desk. I waited a good few minutes and still no one came. In the end I had to just go for the train as I would have missed it if I had waited any longer. I thought there might be a ticket conductor on the train whom I could speak to regarding a ticket. However, the train was ridiculously over packed, with not only all the seats full but the aisles completely full to bursting as well, and a ticket conductor didn’t pass through the train during the journey. I assumed that I could speak to someone regarding a ticket once I had gotten off the train. At this point in time I was 12 weeks pregnant and suffering from severe morning sickness. Due to this and the train being so packed that I’d had to stand up the entire journey feeling sick and dizzy, and the fact that it was my first time travelling by train to Manchester I understandably missed my connecting stop and instead of travelling to Manchester Picadilly I ended up at Manchester Victoria. I was upset as I knew this would make me late for work in my new job and I didn’t know how to get from Manchester Victoria to Picadilly. I spoke to the ticket inspectors in Manchester Victoria and explained what had happened and asked if I could purchase a ticket somewhere and also if they could inform me how to get to Manchester Picadilly. They said that it was fine and showed me where to purchase a ticket. As I was stood in the queue to purchase a ticket another member of staff came over and very abruptly asked me to follow him as he needed to speak to me, which I did. The member of staff informed me that he was a Revenue Protection Officer. He asked me why I hadn’t purchased a ticket at Hindley. I explained about the ticket office being empty and I also explained why I hadn’t been able to purchase one on the train and that I was now trying to purchase one. I explained to him about working at Manchester Picadilly, that this was my first time travelling to Manchester by train and about getting lost. I repeatedly asked if I could purchase a ticket and go to work but the Revenue Protection Officer stated that I had to be issued a fine and that he needed to process all my details. I explained that I was pregnant and felt unwell and asked if I could sit down somewhere whilst he processed my details but he refused and said that I had to stand with him. We went through the process of me providing my details and him processing them which took approximately 10 minutes, all the while I was stood there feeling unwell. In fact, the Revenue Protection Officer was rude and abrupt throughout the whole process and clearly lacked any people skills. Once I left the station I spent the next 10 minutes crying on the phone to my partner about the situation and how I’d been treated. My partner was understandably very angry and disgusted by the way that the Revenue Protection Officer had treated me.
I wrote a letter of complaint to Northern Rail regarding this matter and stated that I have no problem paying the fare but that I felt that I should be given an apology first.
I have received no subsequent contact from Northern Rail regarding neither the fine nor my complaint. I assumed that due to the circumstances and my complaint that the matter had been dropped. This whole matter has left me with a very low opinion of Northern Rail and if it wasn’t for necessity I certainly wouldn’t be using their services.
Due to continued work at Manchester Picadilly I have continued to travel by train from Hindley. In the months since this incident I have found on numerous occasions that the ticket office is opened but seems unmanned. Now that I am able to recognise the staff that regularly work there I have often spotted them around the station undertaking various jobs and have also spotted one particular staff member stood at the front of the station smoking. Clearly at these times people are unable to purchase tickets from the ticket office. Also, it is certainly not an unusual case for the trains to be soo heavily packed that the ticket conductors are completely unable to pass through the train to check or issue tickets. I feel that it is extremely unfair of Northern Rail to penalise people who are unable to purchase tickets due to a poor service.

Or should I ring Northern Rail and try to speak to someone regarding this and try to get it dropped?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions

DomRavioli

sgtivypie wrote: »

Hi everyone,

yesterday I received a court summons from Northern Rail for not purchasing a ticket back in October. They have stated that they are claiming the £5.60 fare plus £100 compensation. I haven't received any penalty notices or anything like that since the incident in October. I have been asked to tick one of 3 options on the form:
1. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and would like the court to deal with the matter in my absence. Also that I submit a statement of mitigation and financial circumstances.
2. I accept the evidence and plead guilty, and will attend court.
3. I intend to plead not guilty. The case will be adjourned until a new hearing date when witnesses/solicitor can attend.

I'm really not sure what to tick. Please read my statement of mitigation below that I am at the moment intending to submit.

On the 31st October 2013 I travelled from Hindley to Manchester Victoria by train. I had just started a new job contracted to Network Rail based at Manchester Picadilly train station and this was my first time ever travelling to Manchester by train. On arrival at the station at Hindley I saw that the ticket office was open but there wasn’t a member of staff sat behind the desk. I waited a good few minutes and still no one came. In the end I had to just go for the train as I would have missed it if I had waited any longer. I thought there might be a ticket conductor on the train whom I could speak to regarding a ticket. However, the train was ridiculously over packed, with not only all the seats full but the aisles completely full to bursting as well, and a ticket conductor didn’t pass through the train during the journey. I assumed that I could speak to someone regarding a ticket once I had gotten off the train. - Conditions of carriage state that you MUST buy a ticket from the ticket office if you get on at a manned station. It is pretty common knowledge and readily available on both the internet and at your local station for perusal. They can't take responsibility for you failing to use the service by the terms and conditions, so you can't plead stupidity.


At this point in time I was 12 weeks pregnant and suffering from severe morning sickness. Not relevant

Due to this and the train being so packed that I’d had to stand up the entire journey feeling sick and dizzy, and the fact that it was my first time travelling by train to Manchester I understandably missed my connecting stop and instead of travelling to Manchester Picadilly I ended up at Manchester Victoria.Welcome to working in England's 2nd city, it is ALWAYS that busy in a morning. Again, they cannot be held responsible for you failing to get off a train.

I was upset as I knew this would make me late for work in my new job and I didn’t know how to get from Manchester Victoria to Picadilly. Of no use to the court, see above for being unable to take responsibility for your own actions.

I spoke to the ticket inspectors in Manchester Victoria and explained what had happened and asked if I could purchase a ticket somewhere and also if they could inform me how to get to Manchester Picadilly. They said that it was fine and showed me where to purchase a ticket. As I was stood in the queue to purchase a ticket another member of staff came over and very abruptly asked me to follow him as he needed to speak to me, which I did. The member of staff informed me that he was a Revenue Protection Officer. He asked me why I hadn’t purchased a ticket at Hindley. I explained about the ticket office being empty and I also explained why I hadn’t been able to purchase one on the train and that I was now trying to purchase one. I explained to him about working at Manchester Picadilly, that this was my first time travelling to Manchester by train and about getting lost. Surely you would have researched it beforehand? manchester is only a square mile, its teeny tiny and quite easy to navigate around.

I repeatedly asked if I could purchase a ticket and go to work but the Revenue Protection Officer stated that I had to be issued a fine and that he needed to process all my details. I explained that I was pregnant and felt unwell and asked if I could sit down somewhere whilst he processed my details but he refused and said that I had to stand with him. He/She's under no obligation to offer you a seat, you're pregnant, not disabled.

We went through the process of me providing my details and him processing them which took approximately 10 minutes, all the while I was stood there feeling unwell. Takes around 10 minutes for the forms to be filled out, again this won't add anything to your "story"; quite the opposite.

In fact, the Revenue Protection Officer was rude and abrupt throughout the whole process and clearly lacked any people skills. Once I left the station I spent the next 10 minutes crying on the phone to my partner about the situation and how I’d been treated. My partner was understandably very angry and disgusted by the way that the Revenue Protection Officer had treated me. Again, not useful to the court - too many words! Just say you were upset, its nothing to do with your partner, you ballsed up by not buying a ticket, don't drag them into it.


I wrote a letter of complaint to Northern Rail regarding this matter and stated that I have no problem paying the fare but that I felt that I should be given an apology first.
An apology for what? They have done nothing wrong from what I can see, you broke the rules, you got caught, you have to pay the fine.

I have received no subsequent contact from Northern Rail regarding neither the fine nor my complaint. I assumed that due to the circumstances and my complaint that the matter had been dropped. This whole matter has left me with a very low opinion of Northern Rail and if it wasn’t for necessity I certainly wouldn’t be using their services. Obviously not enough to find a new job...this would be analysed in court, why are you working for them if you have such a low opinion of them?


Due to continued work at Manchester Picadilly I have continued to travel by train from Hindley. In the months since this incident I have found on numerous occasions that the ticket office is opened but seems unmanned. Now that I am able to recognise the staff that regularly work there I have often spotted them around the station undertaking various jobs and have also spotted one particular staff member stood at the front of the station smoking. Staff are allowed breaks you know; and they are also responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the station. If you want a ticket, buy one in plenty of time, or even the day before from piccadilly?!?!?

Clearly at these times people are unable to purchase tickets from the ticket office. Also, it is certainly not an unusual case for the trains to be soo heavily packed that the ticket conductors are completely unable to pass through the train to check or issue tickets. Again, welcome to rush hour - at least you can get on the train, many can't, due to severe overcrowding.

I feel that it is extremely unfair of Northern Rail to penalise people who are unable to purchase tickets due to a poor service. It isn't a great service, but you continue to use it, you could always get the bus, or drive (if you can't drive, you could always learn) or cycle, or get a lift with a friend or co-worker, or move closer, or get a new job.



Or should I ring Northern Rail and try to speak to someone regarding this and try to get it dropped? You won't get it dropped. You failed to purchase a ticket before boarding. Therefore you have broken the conditions of carriage, you have ZERO hope of getting it dropped.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions

Please see above. I have no idea what you were expecting from Northern Rail, but at rush hour, trains are busy, you must buy a ticked from a manned station before you board (it is your responsibility to be there early enough to get one) and you won't get a seat at rush hour.

May seem a bit harsh but it is the truth according to the laws which exist; follow them and you don't get landed with £100 fines.

wealdroam

DomRavioli wrote: »

May seem a bit harsh...

Yes, just a little.


OP, if you would like another opinion, it might be worth posting here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152

jackieblack

I'm sure that they've heard every excuse in the book about how/why someone wasn't able to buy a ticket. It doesn't mean none of those excuses are true, but it doesn't really matter because they are just excuses and nothing more. It might seem harsh but the bottom line is that conditions of carriage state that you MUST buy a ticket from the ticket office if you get on at a manned station.

If the ticket office at our local station is open but unmanned I just find a member of staff and state that I need to buy a ticket. They either return to the ticket office or send someone else within a minute or two.
It's really not that difficult.

sgtivypie

It is a small station and just has that one member of staff in the ticket office (or not in the ticket office as is often the case). At certain times and days the ticket office is closed completely. I understand that the staff are entitled to a break but what if that break is 15 mins long or longer, are people just expected to stand there the whole time waiting to purchase a ticket?

And DomRavioli, I stated that I am contracted to Network Rail not Northern Rail.

Handsome90

Can I suggest you also get in touch with Passenger Focus? This is a public body set up by the government. They were very helpful in my case and I would highly recommend them.

DomRavioli

sgtivypie wrote: »

It is a small station and just has that one member of staff in the ticket office (or not in the ticket office as is often the case). At certain times and days the ticket office is closed completely. I understand that the staff are entitled to a break but what if that break is 15 mins long or longer, are people just expected to stand there the whole time waiting to purchase a ticket? Yes. Those are the rules, everyone else has to, so you do too.

And DomRavioli, I stated that I am contracted to Network Rail not Northern Rail. You work in the industry for a national rail board. I have zero sympathy.

Just pay the fine, you incurred it, you pay it.

spacey2012

Send them the £5.60 as soon as possible and make a note you regard the £100 as a unlawful penalty charge.

LimeLight

I've never been fined by NR for not having a ticket.

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

I would suggest that OP should have checked this before a prosecution was sought

http://www.northernrail.org/travel/fines-and-penalties

https://www.ircas.co.uk/appeals/index.aspx

Although, it may be a ;little late in the day for this

cookie365

At first sight this seems a bit harsh - unless the transaction history on the counter machine at Hindley tells a slightly different story.