Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

WickedWolfie

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth wrote: »

I would suggest that OP should have checked this before a prosecution was sought

http://www.northernrail.org/travel/fines-and-penalties

https://www.ircas.co.uk/appeals/index.aspx

Although, it may be a ;little late in the day for this

Given that Northern Rail do not run a Penalty Fare scheme I am afraid your links are completely irrelevant.

wealdroam

WickedWolfie wrote: »

Given that Northern Rail do not run a Penalty Fare scheme I am afraid your links are completely irrelevant.

Really?

I cannot understand why you think a webpage produced by Northern Rail, entitled "Fines and Penalties", should be considered "completely irrelevant" when the title of this thread is Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

WickedWolfie

DomRavioli wrote: »

Conditions of carriage state that you MUST buy a ticket from the ticket office if you get on at a manned station. It is pretty common knowledge and readily available on both the internet and at your local station for perusal. They can't take responsibility for you failing to use the service by the terms and conditions, so you can't plead stupidity.

You are fast enough to quote T&Cs, shame you haven't apparently read them properly (or maybe at all).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

To assist you the T&Cs are the NRCOC (see link) - I suggest you look at Part1.A.2.(i) and explain how an unmanned ticket office is deemed to be open. Then note the text which says "In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey." At face value, given that a guard did not pass through the train, the OP has tried to buy a ticket at the first reasoinable opportuunity. I will add one big caveat to this however, namely that the OP does not say whther or not there was a functioning ticket machine at the original station - if so all bets are off.

WickedWolfie

DomRavioli wrote: »

I really do have better things to do than join yet ANOTHER forum.

No, you prefer to post ill-informed rants instead. The forum you were referred to is full of industry experts not self-appointed know-alls like yourself....

WickedWolfie

wealdroam wrote: »

Really?

I cannot understand why you think a webpage produced by Northern Rail, entitled "Fines and Penalties", should be considered "completely irrelevant" when the title of this thread is Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

Really - look at the other forum you mentioned - Northern's £80 charges are the source of some great fury there!

WickedWolfie

To amplify Northern haven't seen fit to agree a proper Penalty Fare scheme with DfT (not least because their woeful ticketing would not meet the minimun criteria) and have come up with their own half-baked scheme which needs to be tested in Court.

WickedWolfie

Stigy wrote: »

Hi,

Ignore what anybody is saying about the Conditions of Carriage...If just for a few minutes. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are important, but cannot form the basis of a criminal prosecution, such as this. It's the Railway Byelaws which state you must buy a ticket before travelling as long as there's places to purchase one, no staff member gives permission to board without one and/or there's no signage instructing you to buy on board or at destination etc.

Unless I'm missing something here, intent to avoid payment was never mentioned by Northern in this case? That being the case, I'm assuming they wish to prosecute using Railway Byelaw 18, all they need to prove is that you didn't have a valid ticket although you have opportunity to purchase one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not disputing this, are you?

You arer fully correct re criminal law. Of course, Northern Rail (and all other TOCs) operate franchises for DfT which specify that they should comply with NRCOC. In the event that Northen play fast and loose to circumvent their franchise conditions there is an obvious response.....

terra_ferma

wealdroam wrote: »

DomRavioli, I invite you to join that thread.

Don't be silly why would someone join a specialised forum full of people who know their stuff?

wealdroam

WickedWolfie wrote: »

Really - look at the other forum you mentioned - Northern's £80 charges are the source of some great fury there!

That may well be so, but to suggest that a website entitled "Fines and Penalties" produced by the company commencing court proceedings as "completely irrelevant" is sheer arrogance on your part.

You are the first person to mention Northern Rail's £80 fixed penalty. It is not an issue the OP need be concerned with.
In fact that Northern webpage only devotes a couple of sentences to that.

I would respectfully suggest that the webpage referenced is relevant, and the OP can easily ignore the sentences about the £80 fixed penalty, just as he can, and should, ignore the blurb about car parking penalties.

That webpage is highly relevant to the OP's predicament.
The OP might also note that there is a link from that webpage to an FAQ pdf entitled "I've received a summons, what do I do?".

Of course that pdf might be biased, but it should certainly not be dismissed as irrelevant.

WickedWolfie

wealdroam wrote: »

That may well be so, but to suggest that a website entitled "Fines and Penalties" produced by the company commencing court proceedings as "completely irrelevant" is sheer arrogance on your part.

You are the first person to mention Northern Rail's £80 fixed penalty. It is not an issue the OP need be concerned with.
In fact that Northern webpage only devotes a couple of sentences to that.

I would respectfully suggest that the webpage referenced is relevant, and the OP can easily ignore the sentences about the £80 fixed penalty, just as he can, and should, ignore the blurb about car parking penalties.

That webpage is highly relevant to the OP's predicament.
The OP might also note that there is a link from that webpage to an FAQ pdf entitled "I've received a summons, what do I do?".

Of course that pdf might be biased, but it should certainly not be dismissed as irrelevant.

To be honest I had focussed more on the IRCAS document. Given that IRCAS (and indeed IFPAS the other similar body) only cover formal penalty fares I was overly dismissive of your initial post, my apologies. The Northern document is indeed relevant not least as it reveals how Northern believe they can operate.