Summoned to court by Northern Rail!!!

DomRavioli

ThumbRemote wrote: »

No they didn't. They said they have seen staff around the station since that date.



It is hardly everyone else's fault that you can't set up email notifications properly.

Shhh. There's a good misinformed eejit.

BarleyGB

I was caughtout on the Railways having not been in possession of the incorrect ticket.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?394388-Punishment-to-fit-the-crime-in-first-class-for-3-stops-and-accused-of-providing-false-details-**SETTLED**


I strongly suggest the OP reads my thread (above), the advice I wasgiven andthe action I took. OP, you should also readthe other relevant threads, and start your own thread on that forum to getspecific advice on your situation, the guys on the threads are experts, some ofthem work for TOC (Train operating company)’s.

In my opinion most if notall DomRavioli’sinitial response is correct, you may not like it, but its dealing with thefacts, a lot of other responses above are around feelings and what might seemlike facts.

TOC only need to prove you breached railway byelaws to get a conviction. You could end up with a criminal record forfare evasion? This also counts as MoralTurpitude in US Law and can preclude you from getting a Visa to travel to USAfor life. Be in doubt this is a seriousmatter (as I found out to my cost).

Personally I don’t think you have a leg to stand on if you plead not guilty,the only thing you can hope to do is get in touch with TOC, write a grovellingapology (the contents of my draft letter are on page 2 of the thread ive linkedto). You need to try and agree an out ofcourt settlement, failing that take cash to the court and ask the prosecution ifthey’ll accept a settlement to drop the case.

All seems very harsh I know, but railway companys come down hard on fairevasion, it’s a criminal matter and has for reaching consequences beyond thefine.

I settled for £200, yes it was a lot but small change when compared to thepotential consequences.

somethingcorporate

BarleyGB wrote: »

I was caughtout on the Railways having not been in possession of the incorrect ticket.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?394388-Punishment-to-fit-the-crime-in-first-class-for-3-stops-and-accused-of-providing-false-details-**SETTLED**


I strongly suggest the OP reads my thread (above), the advice I wasgiven andthe action I took. OP, you should also readthe other relevant threads, and start your own thread on that forum to getspecific advice on your situation, the guys on the threads are experts, some ofthem work for TOC (Train operating company)’s.

In my opinion most if notall DomRavioli’sinitial response is correct, you may not like it, but its dealing with thefacts, a lot of other responses above are around feelings and what might seemlike facts.

TOC only need to prove you breached railway byelaws to get a conviction. You could end up with a criminal record forfare evasion? This also counts as MoralTurpitude in US Law and can preclude you from getting a Visa to travel to USAfor life. Be in doubt this is a seriousmatter (as I found out to my cost).

Personally I don’t think you have a leg to stand on if you plead not guilty,the only thing you can hope to do is get in touch with TOC, write a grovellingapology (the contents of my draft letter are on page 2 of the thread ive linkedto). You need to try and agree an out ofcourt settlement, failing that take cash to the court and ask the prosecution ifthey’ll accept a settlement to drop the case.

All seems very harsh I know, but railway companys come down hard on fairevasion, it’s a criminal matter and has for reaching consequences beyond thefine.

I settled for £200, yes it was a lot but small change when compared to thepotential consequences.

Little bit coy with the truth there, you also provided false details when challenged by the conductor so hardly a similar scenario.

BarleyGB

Not coy at all, all the details are on the thread I linked to, the intention to prosecute was fare evasion.

There are 100s different scenarios TOC prosecute, hence my suggestion to read related threads.

The salient point in my reply is the seriousness of the situation the OP potentially faces, to get advice from people who know the system/how TOCs operate. Consider genuine likelihood of avoiding conviction in court vs an offer to settle.

katejo

somethingcorporate wrote: »

Little bit coy with the truth there, you also provided false details when challenged by the conductor so hardly a similar scenario.

And you were caught in the first class section. Plenty of us would like to sit there when space is short in ordinary class. Why do you think that we don't. The OP had made attempts to buy the right ticket.

somethingcorporate

katejo wrote: »

And you were caught in the first class section. Plenty of us would like to sit there when space is short in ordinary class. Why do you think that we don't. The OP had made attempts to buy the right ticket.

Did you intend to quote my post?

BarleyGB

I'm sure a lot of the posts above are well meaning but they clearly show you've no concept of how the law is applied and what courts will accept.

Attempting to buy a ticket isn't a defence the courts will accept in all but very specific circumstances.

The law states in black and white it's the travellers responsibility to have a valid ticket, in the eyes of the court it's black and white.
"http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or"


The relevance of my experience is the 'not having a valid ticket' I.e. Fare Evasion, to argue against this is misdirecting from the facts the OPs situation.

Again I suggest the OP needs to seriously consider getting expert advice on the Public transport (Trains, tubes and buses) Consumer Action Group sub forum (found from my link). Nearly all the advice stated above is conjecture and clearly based on no knowledge of the law in these matters.

Other than DomRavioli's response nothing posted since is a realistic appraisal of the facts or provides a reasonable hope of avoiding conviction.




"And you were caught in the first class section. Plenty of us would like to sit there when space is short in ordinary class. Why do you think that we don't. The OP had made attempts to buy the right ticket."

Why is this relevant, where did I say I don't think others don't want to sit in first class when space is short in ordinary class. Nowhere did I say this! Again your misrepresenting my advice, distorting what I said and not helping the OP.

BarleyGB

Just to be clear, not being in possession is 'attempt to avoid payment'. The duty of care is with the passenger not the TOC to provide manned ticket offices. Would you walk out of Tesco with a bottle of whiskey if the tills weren't staffed?

wealdroam

BarleyGB wrote: »

The law states in black and white it's the travellers responsibility to have a valid ticket, in the eyes of the court it's black and white.
"http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or"


The relevance of my experience is the 'not having a valid ticket' I.e. Fare Evasion, to argue against this is misdirecting from the facts the OPs situation.

OK, your quote from The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is accurate.

However, your analysis of it is not.

You have chosen to totally ignore the phrase "and with intent to avoid payment thereof".

It is clear from the original post that the OP had no intention of avoiding payment.
To suggest otherwise is wrong.

The OP has already sought advice from industry experts elsewhere.

BarleyGB

Doesn't getting on the train having not paid prove intent? Certainly could do and the OP is not contesting that. To dispute the facts in court it's a pretty week case saying you waited at the ticket office window for a few minutes. If it was that easy everyone would do it.

In many 1st offences TOCs can be lenient or agree to a settlement, I'm merely pointing out the potential legal consequences of going to court.

In most cases the best course of action is to appeal to TOC and avoid court at all costs.