Famous Rich and Hungry

Georgiegirl256

Mr_F_Dorsetty wrote: »

That's the whole point isn't it, the point you miss - I am not missing anything as this is partly what I used to do for a living at one point . Both my wife and I are members of the BPS, British Psychological Society, a professional body.

Now we see two things in your comment:

* As I have professional qualifications in this subject, sociology and psychology, instantly your view is lessened. I can talk facts whilst you talk opinion - this is how things disseminate down the tree of life.

* You are upset or deeply irritated because I have dared to question the validity of what you have said. You then try to empower your position by claiming common ground with those you talk about. Yet you have no common ground as you happily still question what 'Other' people do and you keep on doing it.

You can be pee'd off at me (very broad shoulders, don't care) But should they not be pee'd off at you? Or are they too poor to count? Are they dismissed as I dismiss you? :cool:

Not so nice when you're the underling is it? You can shout, scream and jump up and down, no one actually cares apart from 'people like you' (PLU as it gets termed).

Those who are your PLU will agree with you, but I don't and people in a lower social strata won't either.

Now you've asked me a question... can I make a decision about what it is the best way to spend money?

Well, I come from a wealthy family, total silver spoon childhood, private education, ex-company director blah blah blah... Yes, I would be able to choose food over booze. But then I would actually choose a book for my child over food for myself if it were a choice I had to make.

My position of being unable to afford food and books in sufficient quantities would be my fault not that of my child. There is no way would I ever make my child feel 'poor'.

I know this because of what I learnt as a child from observing and listening to my parents. My father was a retired Major, WW2 hero, local councillor, Chairman of the local area Conservative party and successful businessman and so on... that is where I learnt what life was all about.

But if I go on to some ultra rough estate, anywhere in the UK, where a child is maybe the 5th or 6th generation to live on benefits and who has a teenage mum who knows nothing herself about life - what does that child learn?

We know that by age 3, that child is already so hugely disadvantaged it will 99.999% never catch up with it's middle class peers and is destined to a life of under achievement and failure.

So I may as well say to those people don't drink, buy the kid a book and say it in Cantonese Chinese. It'd be comprehended just as well as it would said in English.... they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. What's a book when you're semi illiterate?

But it is also a fact that if I told you Georgiegirl256, that you could ONLY talk Cantonese if you wished to do anything in life which was worthwhile - you're be in immediate and very serious trouble.

How I would understand life from my childhood is a complete universe away from how a child from a 'poor' family perceives life. Now, I can see what happens and how it happens because I have been educated in the subject and to some very small extent, lived it. But I couldn't get it 100% right because I knew I would escape.... these people know they never will.

I remember talking to one lady who had two young kids. A single mother of about age 22 yrs old who lived on a really nasty estate. She was telling me how worried she was about her kids growing up there so I said to her "Why don't you move?.

She just looked at me blankly. She had no idea she could move, it simply never crossed her mind and never would. From day one at home, at school, the way society has reacted to her, the way the benefits system treats everyone as a liar... all that accumultates to mean she has been bred to fail and now so have her kids.

The question you've asked of me, that lady doesn't even understand, let alone understand the answer.

That is what you miss entirely - they are where they are and do not even understand the question because you and those like you do not value them; they are the 'Others'.

Wow! You have qualifications in the subject? I don't mean that flippantly, I genuinely am open mouthed and shocked to hear that after what you've wrote here, you could have fooled me! There are so many points I could answer to, but I really can't be bothered with arguing with someone who has turned a fairly light hearted discussion into a them and us discussion.

I do value the 'poor people' as you call them, because dispite what I have put here, I don't judge people on their social standing, how much money they've got, if they're on benefits on not, I really don't, and I would never call them 'the others'....my problem was about the small minority of them that deem to spend their money on non necessities, and then proceed to plead poverty. I certainly didn't mean that to include everyone who is on benefits, and if you took it to mean that I did, well you totally got it wrong.

Just because you have qualifications, please don't think you are better than the rest of us. I'm neither upset or deeply irritated, I'm really not, I was simply trying to explain the point I was trying to convey. Please don't play the 'I'm more intelligent than you' card, it's really not very becoming, and I really hope you're not like that with your clients/patients.

Please don't talk down to people and try to belittle them. I genuinely mean that. You've done it with me and you're now doing it to Deanied too.

Mr_F_Dorsetty

Deanied wrote: »

In a word... YES!
If I were rich enough to own a luxury car, then lost my job or my income significantly decreased for some reason I would sell the luxury car and get one which was cheaper to run, use public transport or walk.

Of course I would have the choice to continue to own a luxury car, but like a pet it's an optional extra not a necessity. I would forfeit luxuries over essentials. Food, water and shelter are essentials, pets are not.

A car is not a sentient being. You must have missed this in school. Do you know what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, is? Try looking it up, maybe learn something.

Unfortunately you do not even understand the question let alone the answers.

It is people like yourself, if I recognise the type correctly, whom think perchance that UK prisons are hotels because that's what it says in the Sun, Mirror or Mail.

Ever been in a UK prison? Both my wife and myself have done work in prisons and I can assure you, they're no hotel you'd ever want to stay in. Unless for a start off you like a smell of sweat, fear, disinfectant and urine which is all pervading, it's up your nose and eats into your clothing.

These 'throw away the key' types also believe that people should be treated extremely poorly with massively long sentences and that somehow this would improve society.

They don't understand that question either.

This is not a random expansion it is all the same question. UK prisons have some truly dire figures which I can't be bothered to get into, but let's just say there isn't an academic nor prison worker who does not realise that UK prisons are just an extension or in fact a replacement for a proper Mental health service and social housing.

About 8% of people in UK prisons are actually dangerous, as in needing to be segregated. Murderers, rapists, sex offenders and those convicted of higher end violence.

That leaves the other 92% who basically have all the same things in common -

* Addicted to drink, drugs or both
* Mentally illnesses - UK prisoners average two each.
* Fully or semi illiterate
* From a 'poor' background.

Some people seem to think that a dehumanising prison system will somehow will force people to take a productive part in society

How does that work then? Honestly, really think about it.

Let's imagine you throw someone into a really nasty cell, bread & water and rock breaking. Then they are let out after their 25 years sentence for shoplifting or whatever... how are they then meant to integrate into a society they were never integrated into in the first place?

UK prison does not rehabilitate, it segregates. This does not work. This can be clearly seen by the UK recidivism rate which is akin to the USA's at 75% over a year for every crime category apart from severe violence/murder and sex offences.

Compare this to a N European system, a judicial system which uses ultra low or zero tariffs. Prisons which are truly like hotels, and a system which has a complete focus on rehabilitation... recidivism rate, 20% over two years.

Without wishing to be rude, people such as Deanied here are the actual problem. It is they whom hold back UK society because they are the ones who refuse to see sense. The politicians then play the Greed-Fear-Hate game because of course it is a cheap way to get votes.

But it simply creates trouble and cures nothing.

They refuse to grasp that if you want a human being to act like a human being and adhere to a certain way of life, they have to be given a reason and an understanding of that way of life in the first place!

You cannot beat them until they are good, as people are finding out, they do not comply as they have no idea how to comply - so they just bite back.

Deanied

Mr_F_Dorsetty wrote: »

A car is not a sentient being. You must have missed this in school. Do you know what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, is? Try looking it up, maybe learn something.

Unfortunately you do not even understand the question let alone the answers.

It is people like yourself, if I recognise the type correctly, whom think perchance that UK prisons are hotels because that's what it says in the Sun, Mirror or Mail.

Ever been in a UK prison? Both my wife and myself have done work in prisons and I can assure you, they're no hotel you'd ever want to stay in. Unless for a start off you like a smell of sweat, fear, disinfectant and urine which is all pervading, it's up your nose and eats into your clothing.

These 'throw away the key' types also believe that people should be treated extremely poorly with massively long sentences and that somehow this would improve society.

They don't understand that question either.

This is not a random expansion it is all the same question. UK prisons have some truly dire figures which I can't be bothered to get into, but let's just say there isn't an academic nor prison worker who does not realise that UK prisons are just an extension or in fact a replacement for a proper Mental health service and social housing.

About 8% of people in UK prisons are actually dangerous, as in needing to be segregated. Murderers, rapists, sex offenders and those convicted of higher end violence.

That leaves the other 92% who basically have all the same things in common -

* Addicted to drink, drugs or both
* Mentally illnesses - UK prisoners average two each.
* Fully or semi illiterate
* From a 'poor' background.

Some people seem to think that a dehumanising prison system will somehow will force people to take a productive part in society

How does that work then? Honestly, really think about it.

Let's imagine you throw someone into a really nasty cell, bread & water and rock breaking. Then they are let out after their 25 years sentence for shoplifting or whatever... how are they then meant to integrate into a society they were never integrated into in the first place?

UK prison does not rehabilitate, it segregates. This does not work. This can be clearly seen by the UK recidivism rate which is akin to the USA's at 75% over a year for every crime category apart from severe violence/murder and sex offences.

Compare this to a N European system, a judicial system which uses ultra low or zero tariffs. Prisons which are truly like hotels, and a system which has a complete focus on rehabilitation... recidivism rate, 20% over two years.

Without wishing to be rude, people such as Deanied here are the actual problem. It is they whom hold back UK society because they are the ones who refuse to see sense. The politicians then play the Greed-Fear-Hate game because of course it is a cheap way to get votes.

But it simply creates trouble and cures nothing.

They refuse to grasp that if you want a human being to act like a human being and adhere to a certain way of life, they have to be given a reason and an understanding of that way of life in the first place!

You cannot beat them until they are good, as people are finding out, they do not comply as they have no idea how to comply - so they just bite back.

A little personal and rude, but luckily like you I have broad shoulders.

Just to correct you on the personal points; I have indeed heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs; a three year Psychology degree tends to touch on it, but thanks for the reading recommendation.

Unfortunately I don't read the Sun, Mirror or Mail. Clearly you do, as you are the expert on their contents, so I can't comment on them.

I have also visited prisons in the UK and abroad (not as a detainee).

It is very apparent that you were quite far off the mark with your assumptions, but you are as entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.

Let's hope that 'people like me' aren't the actual problem. I'm a teacher so hopefully teaching the future generations a bit of sense than you (without wishing to be rude).

neverdespairgirl

Mr_F_Dorsetty wrote: »

Ever been in a UK prison? Both my wife and myself have done work in prisons and I can assure you, they're no hotel you'd ever want to stay in. Unless for a start off you like a smell of sweat, fear, disinfectant and urine which is all pervading, it's up your nose and eats into your clothing.

I've been to lots of UK prisons - well over half, I reckon.

Most are like you describe. A few are not. Ford, for example.

*max*

Deanied wrote: »

Actually I have had many pets that I loved dearly. I simply value humans above animals.

I'm not saying the animals should be put down, just given to another owner so that those families can concentrate on their children.

It's not fair to have a pet that you can't afford to feed adequately or care for should it fall sick, however much you love it.

I don't doubt you value humans above animals, you've made that very clear. What I find distasteful though, is likening a pet to a car- something you can downgrade on or get rid of if needs be.

You said if you had a luxury car and fell on hard times, you would get a cheaper car or go without all together. Well good on you! So would I! That doesn't mean the same goes for a pet though. An animal is not a car, not a luxury item you can sell on ebay. They feel, they love, they need. They can't be got rid of or sold on, or downgraded. Seriously....this is beyond words now.

Mr_F_Dorsetty

Georgiegirl256 wrote: »

Please don't play the 'I'm more intelligent than you' card, it's really not very becoming.

LOLOLOL :rotfl: now I am fascinated.

Please, tell me, how would you know what somebody who has professional knowledge of this subject, which you blatantly have no knowledge of at all, would post or say?

You don't, because you have no knowledge So that is a wholly pointless comment isn't it? It is just not logical, it's just verbiage. Funny, yes, but not logical nor having any foundation in fact.

Unfortunately I don't care if you find it becoming or not, that's your view and your view does not matter to me in anyway. Neither does anyone else's view for that matter, the only people in the world whom I value are my wife and kids - you're neither Don't be alarmed you're far from alone, in real life I barely talk to anyone. I really can't be bothered with all the 'social pleasantries' they seem to need.

What I was actually pointing out to you is how it feels to be talked down to. Look how huffy you have got, all your feathers ruffled. Don't bother saying you're not because your use of language says otherwise.

But now, just try to imagine that your whole life was like that, not this internet stuff which means nothing, but in real life.

So, from your earliest memories everyone is talking down to you, everyone is ignoring your point or your needs, everyone thinks you just lie, everyone thinks you're just bone idle, everyone looks at you like you are scum. You can barely read and your lexicon is tiny....and that is all day, every day.

Now, I know you do not really understand what I am talking about and that's fine. If you did understand your response would be different. and you'd realise I am really not being personal in anyway.

But do at least realise that someone who buys booze not food for their kids doesn't understand what you do - it is that simple. Just like you really do not get what I am talking about because your knowledge is very limited and your view parochial, they just don't get it.

There has quite recently been some very interesting work reported into IQ and relative understanding of the same subject matter. It appears that dependant on IQ people perceive completely different realities from the same information. It's truly fascinating.

Interestingly in 1984 Orwell introduces the concept of NewSpeak. The idea being that the more one lessens the available lexicon, the less people can think, so the less their ability to think about complex subjects

If we look at the figures for the UK, NewSpeak is alive and living in the UK - it's really quite depressing.

Georgiegirl256

Mr_F_Dorsetty wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't care if you find it becoming or not, that's your view and your view does not matter to me in anyway. Neither does anyone else's view for that matter, the only people in the world whom I value are my wife and kids - you're neither Thank goodness for that! :rotfl:Don't be alarmed you're far from alone, in real life I barely talk to anyone. I really can't be bothered with all the 'social pleasantries' they seem to need.

What I was actually pointing out to you is how it feels to be talked down to. Look how huffy you have got, all your feathers ruffled. Don't bother saying you're not because your use of language says otherwise.

I wasn't 'huffy', I seriously wasn't, until your last post to me and Deanied in which you did talk down to us, you did make out that you were better than everyone else, not just with your qualifications, but in general. That did annoy me yes, why do you talk down to people and try to belittle them? Why do you keep on referring to people as 'people like you'? Why? When you don't even know someone.

Now, I know you do not really understand what I am talking about and that's fine. If you did understand your response would be different. and you'd realise I am really not being personal in anyway.

i actually do know what you are talking about, and I can see where you are coming from believe it or not. But you're thinking that I'm judging all 'poor people' (your words not mine the same, and I'm not....I'm not explaining myself and the point I made many posts ago again, because I think you do know what I mean even if you won't admit it.

There has quite recently been some very interesting work reported into IQ and relative understanding of the same subject matter. It appears that dependant on IQ people perceive completely different realities from the same information. It's truly fascinating.

There you go again! Talking down to people. You have no idea of my IQ, nor do I have any idea of yours. Just because you have 'qualifications' in a certain field does not mean that it's a certainty that your IQ will be higher than mine, or indeed any of us here. You don't know what qualifications any of us here have..

I certainly haven't taken anything personally, it just genuinely puzzles me why you talk like you're better than the rest of us, and why you have to turn a thread which was (in general) a fairly lighthearted thread into something more. We were talking about benefits and food banks, you come along and start talking about prisons? You do appear to have a serious superiority complex.

Memory_Girl

I'm just catching up ........... but I took a slightly different take to the post by Mr F. Just my personal viewpoint however.

Obviously this is a debate by intelligent, literate people (well we are literate enough to post on a forum) What Mr F seemed to do was to choose a mode of "speech" (albeit written) designed to provoke in us a strong reaction ..... ranging from mild irritation to anger.

I think the point is that those are the feelings most often experienced by those who are disenfranchised in our society ..... I work with single parents who really don't get that they should choose food for their kids over booze (because their parents never prioritised them like that) or feeding a dog V nappies for a child, because and I quote "whats the difference picking up dog S*** and kid S***?"

When someone "like me" comes along to suggest that might be an unreasonable stance (Mum, Professional, Literate, Educated) their reaction is the same as the one we had to Mr F. Anger and irritation.

Now - personally I hope Mr F has more EQ if he is in a client facing position - but he has, through my immediate gut reaction, taught me a valuable lesson in placing myself in someone else's shoes.

Whether that was his intention or not - I got the lesson anyway.

MG

dandelionclock30

Deanied wrote: »

Actually I have had many pets that I loved dearly. I simply value humans above animals.

I'm not saying the animals should be put down, just given to another owner so that those families can concentrate on their children.

It's not fair to have a pet that you can't afford to feed adequately or care for should it fall sick, however much you love it.

If you are in receipt of council tax benefit/housing benefit then your pet is entitled to vet care from the PDSA which is free and you can give a donation. You can also get vouchers for neutering/chipping.
Its people who are not on benefits that have more of a struggle with vets bills in my experience.

Pets can be very attached to their owners so its is really fair on them to be given away?. I think people need to think more before taking them on and that its needs will come first for better/worse richer or poorer.

Unless someone has their money stopped or a massive amount of debt then I cant see how they cant afford pet food. You just go without treats yourself its that simple.

whodathunkit

Georgiegirl256 wrote: »

Wow! You have qualifications in the subject? I don't mean that flippantly, I genuinely am open mouthed and shocked to hear that after what you've wrote here, you could have fooled me! There are so many points I could answer to, but I really can't be bothered with arguing with someone who has turned a fairly light hearted discussion into a them and us discussion.

I do value the 'poor people' as you call them, because dispite what I have put here, I don't judge people on their social standing, how much money they've got, if they're on benefits on not, I really don't, and I would never call them 'the others'....my problem was about the small minority of them that deem to spend their money on non necessities, and then proceed to plead poverty. I certainly didn't mean that to include everyone who is on benefits, and if you took it to mean that I did, well you totally got it wrong.

Just because you have qualifications, please don't think you are better than the rest of us. I'm neither upset or deeply irritated, I'm really not, I was simply trying to explain the point I was trying to convey. Please don't play the 'I'm more intelligent than you' card, it's really not very becoming, and I really hope you're not like that with your clients/patients.

Please don't talk down to people and try to belittle them. I genuinely mean that. You've done it with me and you're now doing it to Deanied too.

It's not hard to say you have qualifications.;)