Another public sector pay outrage

chewmylegoff

Graham_Devon wrote: »

But they won't.

You can't simply get promoted to the next scale up. You have to have the qualifications to do the next scale up.

The next scale up from a ward nurse for example would be a GP practice nurse, midwife, specialist operating theatre nurse.

You can't just get promoted to those jobs. You have to have the qualifications to do them. They are different jobs.

Just as a doctor cannot just get "promoted" to a consultant. They have to take that active decision to retrain. Very often self funded I may add. Midwifery courses for example are quite expensive.

so what you're saying is you have to have appropriate qualifications and experience to get promoted and you don't just get given a promotion automatically?

what do you think happens in the private sector?

chewmylegoff

Spirit wrote: »

Patient needs dictate that for registered staff in acute care a traditional pyramid structure is required to keep nurses , well, nursing.

only a tiny percentage of accountants make partner. it's the same pretty much everywhere isn't it. only a small percentage of people get into the best jobs, the majority remain "foot soldiers" for most if not all of their careers.

Graham_Devon

chewmylegoff wrote: »

so what you're saying is you have to have appropriate qualifications and experience to get promoted and you don't just get given a promotion automatically?

what do you think happens in the private sector?

This wasn't, and never was my point. It was actually you who bought up the promotion thing and suggested they would get paid more due to promotion. I simply responded stating that promotion is not really viable in the majority of cases as you need the qualifications to go with it. Neither does promotion really exist in the NHS. You apply for a new job. You don't get promoted to it. Every job has to be advertised. It's quite unlikely that you will just get promoted from pathologist to radiographer as an example.

My point was to point out that in the private sector, there does not appear to be a recognised system that's anything like Agenda for Change where someone doing exactly the same job with exactly the same qualifications gets paid more or less than their colleague.

Secondly, in response to your previous point about your partner. I specifically stated new starters. I never made out that people transferring within the NHS start on the lowest tier again. One of the points of AFC was that your pay moves with you around the NHS.

Fear were getting wrapped up in detail here. My over riding point is that I don't know of anything like AFC that exists in the private sector.

chewmylegoff

Graham_Devon wrote: »

This wasn't, and never was my point. It was actually you who bought up the promotion thing and suggested they would get paid more due to promotion.

no, i suggested once they had reached a level of experience where they weren't getting materially more effective at the role they were currently doing, they wouldn't get paid more unless they got promoted.

I simply responded stating that promotion is not really viable in the majority of cases as you need the qualifications to go with it. Neither does promotion really exist in the NHS. You apply for a new job. You don't get promoted to it. Every job has to be advertised. It's quite unlikely that you will just get promoted from pathologist to radiographer as an example.

many, many employers advertise all jobs. where i currently work i have had to interview for every promotion and also for a lateral move where i was technically demoted according to my pay scale.

clearly promotion is possible within the NHS otherwise everyone would still be at entry level and there would be no-one doing any of the more senior jobs.

My point was to point out that in the private sector, there does not appear to be a recognised system that's anything like Agenda for Change where someone doing exactly the same job with exactly the same qualifications gets paid more or less than their colleague.

most large employers use pay bands and whilst i have never seen spine points in the private sector, people doing exactly the same job with exactly the same qualifications do get paid differently depending on how much experience they have in said job. i have provided you with specific examples of this but you just ignore them because you have got it into your head that the NHS is different somehow.

Secondly, in response to your previous point about your partner. I specifically stated new starters. I never made out that people transferring within the NHS start on the lowest tier again. One of the points of AFC was that your pay moves with you around the NHS.

ok.

Fear were getting wrapped up in detail here. My over riding point is that I don't know of anything like AFC that exists in the private sector.

again, it completely pervades the entire private sector. it's not called anything to do with "change" because it's already been like that for ages.

ruggedtoast

Toynbee weighs in.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/hug-a-banker-labour-boardrooms-co-op-miliband

Look how strenuously the bankers are avoiding the EU's new rules limiting bonuses to a stingy 100% of salary, or 200% with shareholder approval. Astonishingly, George Osborne is taking legal action against the EU to try to get this lifted. The Bank of England's plan announced yesterday – a six-year period in which bonuses can be clawed back in the case of serious wrongdoing – would be hard to effect, says the High Pay Centre. Instead, slithering round the law, the banks re-badge bonuses as "monthly allowances", while the regulator turns a blind eye: ignoring the spirit of the law is regulatory capture – and we know where that led last time.

All this comes with the usual empty threats: Antony Jenkins of Barclays warns that if these bonuses aren't paid, there'll be a "death spiral" dearth of bankers to take the top jobs. The High Pay Centre has collated the international and UK research showing no flight, no shortage of top talent, and no relation between pay and performance.

The snouts are in the trough, and as Graham so astutely pointed out, when it comes to politicians and bankers we have to pay through the nose to get the best, but when it comes to nurses and teachers they are supposed to work for nothing.

Spirit_2

chewmylegoff wrote: »

only a tiny percentage of accountants make partner. it's the same pretty much everywhere isn't it. only a small percentage of people get into the best jobs, the majority remain "foot soldiers" for most if not all of their careers.

There may be more levels of foot soldier or more opportunites to change sector.

There are bottlenecks in "mass" professional ward roles where there are many band 5 roles, only one or two band 6 roles and only one band 7 (ward sister) role. Yet an experienced band 5 is likely to be deemed competent to take charge of the ward for the whole shift as the ward and will do so on a regular basis.

To seek higher levels of pay (more necessary when there is an incomes policy and higher inflation which is what this is) , forces people to go in search of specialist roles and away from ward nursing - and drains experience form the wards for which there is no ready UK supply. Staff also evaluate work life balance and will look to forgo shift working and shift premiums on wards for better basic pay in non ward specialist roles and Monday to Friday working.

Spirit_2

chewmylegoff wrote: »

most large employers use pay bands and whilst i have never seen spine points in the private sector, people doing exactly the same job with exactly the same qualifications do get paid differently depending on how much experience they have in said job. i have provided you with specific examples of this but you just ignore them because you have got it into your head that the NHS is different somehow.

.

The private sector does not suffer the same risk on equal pay that large pubic sector employers face. AfC was introduced in part to tackle this.

http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/women-leadership-blog/2014/jan/24/equal-pay-case-birmingham-city-council-fallout

N1AK

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Public sector workers do the most important jobs.

Give me the choice of employing the people who run our power plants (private) or libraries (public) and I know which one I'd pick.

It's stupid to try and define 'most important' though I knew that wouldn't stop you. What is certainly true however is that without private sector jobs there wouldn't be any money to pay for the public sector ones

Bantex_2

The private sector would survive without a public sector.
The public sector could not survive without the private sector.

Public sector employees should be instructed to personally thank every private sector taxpayer they meet for keeping them in work and pensions.

chucknorris

The points about the public sector pension are:


1. Yes it is great value, even after the recent/forthcoming changes i.e. increase in contributions (mine from 6.4% to 11%), to CPI from RPI, to career average from final salary and extending the year that you receive it in line with the sate pension age. I can understand why it winds private sector employees up when they see complaints from public sector employees.


2. Despite it's great value you still have to be able to pay your way before retirement. Now it doesn't really affect me because my salary isn't my main income (in fact I use most of my salary to invest in more pension). But those that depend on their salary to live on have seen their income fall substantially from where it would have otherwise been without the downturn over the last few years. In my case it has declined almost 20% due to salary freeze, below inflation salary rises and an increased pension contribution. Do I care? Well obviously if you offered me more I would take it, but overall I can understand why this has happened and I accept it. But then again I can afford to philosophical about it. The private sector will of course also suffered reductions, although I suspect that those in the private sector might get a faster correction though when the economy picks up.