CMS PCN Robin Leisure Park Wigan

hulksmash

Hi

Need some advice on a parking ticket stuck to my windscreen today. I took the family to Empire Cinemas Wigan this afternoon. I parked on the car park opposite the cinema across the road at around. It was a match day at the local DW stadium so half of this car park (right side towards stadium) had people taking payment for parking whilst at the stadium. The signs clearly say left hand side is for Cinema, pizza hut, gala bingo parking. So I parked on the left side a few rows away from the temporary stadium parking.

After viewing the movie and returning to the vehicle a few hours later I saw this ticket attached to the windscreen. The match was still on at the stadium and the attendants had all gone.

I took pictures all around my car and surrounding spaces, signs etc... Even my friends car which was parked right next to mine had no attached ticket.

The ticket is from Comprehensive Management Services Ltd (company no. 7939812). The time stamp was when I was in the cinema. The reason for issue says "Customer Parking Only While On Premeses". Worded exactly like that. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

I've read various comments about this company and how it seems to have started up again.

My car is a company car so i'm not the registered owner. What do I need to do now?

Thanks for any help.

Stroma

You need to appeal this to take it away from the company, otherwise they may pay. Just say you were the keeper on the day, enclose copies of receipts and ask them to cancel this.

If you read the sticky thread by coupon mad she has a good first appeal letter there you can send. Also read the whole thread

hoohoo

These are IPC members.
As this is a company car I would appeal as the keeper (which is different to registered keeper) to take the company out of the loop.

If you have copies of the cinema ticket send that in to show you were a cinema customer and therefore compliant with the signs.

contact@theIPC.info
Also invoke the IPC complaint procedure and explain that IPC are running a scam and ticketing genuine customers of shops. Explain that this is a complaint and not an appeal; you are currently appealing anyway to the PPC but require this behaviour to stop as it is a breach of their code of practice

14. Predatory Tactics
14.1 You must not use predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring
parking charges. Such instances will be viewed as a serious instance of non-compliance and
will be dealt with under the sanctions system as defined in schedule 2 to the Code.

hulksmash

Thanks. Just read the template letter. Do I use the exact wording but add in about parking within permitted area and here is a copy of cinema tickets proving registered keeper was a customer?

Coupon-mad

Yes, and change 'I am the registered keeper and' to 'I am the keeper of this car and'. You are writing as the keeper of the car.

But you don't say 'the keeper was a customer' You say 'the driver' was a customer!! BE CAREFUL when adding extra words as you can give away the driver!

hulksmash

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes, and change 'I am the registered keeper and' to 'I am the keeper of this car and'. You are writing as the keeper of the car.

But you don't say 'the keeper was a customer' You say 'the driver' was a customer!! BE CAREFUL when adding extra words as you can give away the driver!

Thanks. So i've changed it to say IPC instead of BPA and added the cinema bit. Does this seem OK?

As the keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with the IPC Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass
[FONT=&quot]4) The driver was a customer of Empire Cinemas (copy of tickets enclosed) and was parked well within the permitted free parking area.[/FONT]

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Just to prove a point heres the sign on entering car park. I turned left toward the free bit and then second right to top of screen.

i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj221/hulksmash232/cmssign_zps442081a5.jpg

Here's the sign a few spaces next to where I parked.

i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj221/hulksmash232/entrancesign_zps0131b5f1.jpg

Do you think they can justify the ticket based on parking position?

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Coupon-mad

That's not the standard first appeal letter I wrote in the NEWBIES thread, which doesn't even mention the BPA nor POPLA and is written deliberately to cover all bases.

We can have a look at the signs tomorrow.

hulksmash

Coupon-mad wrote: »

That's not the standard first appeal letter I wrote in the NEWBIES thread, which doesn't even mention the BPA nor POPLA and is written deliberately to cover all bases.

We can have a look at the signs tomorrow.

Er OK. This is the bit I read from the thread "
THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC " "The initial appeal to the PPC can be based on this sort of template below (based on Stroma's version but with a few tweaks from me and an extra question to cover 'contractual' cases). THE APPEAL BELOW SUITS ANY CASE IN ENGLAND/WALES AND CAN BE ADAPTED TO BE A 'LATE APPEAL' AS WELL."

Any direction is appreciated

Stroma

This is the one she means

Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

PCN number xxxxxxx
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your NTK failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

hulksmash

Stroma wrote: »

This is the one she means

Yes thats the same one i've changed with the registered keeper to keeper and (2) to IPC instead of BPA. Then added (4). The rest of it is also on but I only showed the first section.

hulksmash

So this is the whole letter.

Dear COMPREHENSIVE MANAGEMENT SERVICES LTD

PCN number: xxxxxxx
Vehicle: xxxxx
As the keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with the IPC Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass
4) The driver was a customer of Empire Cinemas (copy of tickets enclosed) and was parked well within the permitted free parking area.

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your NTK failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

Is this OK?

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