'A' level good results: good teaching or academically able pupils?

FBaby

Since we are today on the subject of choosing schools and career choice of secondary school pupils, I thought I would raise the query I've been wondering lately.

My DD is 14 and we have just started to look at 6th forms. She has been set on wanting to go to medical school for 3 years and I am starting to believe that it might very well be the path she shall take. If that is the case, there wil be no alternative but for her to get all A or A* at her A levels.

Now looking at local college results, the percentage of pupils getting 3 A*/A/Bs goes from 2% to 42%. All higher percentages are pupils from private schools.

So my question is: Is it mainly because private schools attract more academic/hard working pupils, or is it because the level of teaching is really superior? Can a very academic, hard working motivated child be assured to do as well at a lower percentage college (ie. be in the 2%), or can their performance be directly affected by the quality of teaching/level of the class? For instance, could an academic child be hindered because the level of the class is set lower and not all the curriculum is covered over the years?

stardoman

It might also be about how strict they are about who they let do the A Level courses. My son's school boasts that of all pupils taking 3 A Levels they get an average of 2 As and 1 B. Must admit I was very impressed by this.

However, going through the process to get my son onto an A Level course is proving difficult. They will only accept pupils who get an A or A* at GCSE level . Even a B is not good enough.

My son is predicated to get pretty much all Bs, though in his mocks he got a few A*s. They are still trying to get him to go for the BTEC courses as they say that they are more practical and easier to get.

I had a meeting with the school on Wednesday last week and I thought it was pretty much sorted. She put the case for the BTECs but I put mine for the A Levels. Then on Friday she has a chat with my son and has managed to put him off the A Levels by telling him that as he will only be doing 3 subjects it will reduce his choice of university.

So though the private schools might get better results, are they more choosy about who they let onto their courses. Our local college will have anyone as long as they get a C grade.

Person_one

stardoman wrote: »

It might also be about how strict they are about who they let do the A Level courses. My son's school boosts that of all pupils taking 3 A Levels they get an average of 2 As and 1 B. Must admit I was very impressed by this.

However, going through the process to get my son onto an A Level course is proving difficult. They will only accept pupils who get an A or A* at GCSE level . Even a B is not good enough.

My son is predicated to get pretty much all Bs, though in his mocks he got a few A*s. They are still trying to get him to go for the BTEC courses as they say that they are more practical and easier to get.

I had a meeting with the school on Wednesday last week and I thought it was pretty much sorted. She put the case for the BTECs but I put mine for the A Levels. Then on Friday she has a chat with my son and has managed to put him off the A Levels by telling him that as he will only be doing 3 subjects it will reduce his choice of university.

So though the private schools might get better results, are they more choosy about who they let onto their courses. Our local college will have anyone as long as they get a C grade.

Agree with this, a church school nearby kicks its pupils out if they don't do well enough at AS, so they never get the chance to muddy their published results.

I went to a pretty appalling school (at the time, its really upped its game since) and a couple of girls went on to medical school, one lad went to Oxford, plenty of us have decent degrees. I think the motivation and innate ability of the individual are the main deciding factor.

You mention your daughter's med school ambitions a lot though, and often talk about how advanced/above average your children are. Please be careful about inadvertently putting her under pressure, one of the brightest girls I knew growing up ended up with a severe eating disorder and a suicide attempt in her first year of uni due to the stress of trying to meet high expectations, and barely speaks to her mother now.

FBaby

That's exactly what I am wondering! It's not so much about the teaching as the caliber of pupils (by that I mean academically able). My DD is so far predicted A*/A easily at all her GCSEs. If it is an indication that she is likely to get excellent results at her 'A' levels, I would much prefer she went to the local 6th form (not just the costs, some offer 100% scholarship, but because I think it fits her profile better).

However, I have heard about pupils doing extremely well at their GCSEs struggling and ending up with average grades for their 'A' levels, so not clear how that would be besides losing focus etc...

daisiegg

I think that unless there are shocking problems with teaching that are documented in Ofsted reports, word of mouth, etc (as in, teachers literally not teaching the syllabus and so on) then it is more down to the ability of the students.

My parents were worried about my brother when he got to year 11, as the school he was at had gone really downhill and A Level results looked poor. My brother is very academic and had a big group of friends of a similar ability. He moved to a different school for sixth form along with about half of his friends, the other half remaining at the original school. Well, they all did as well as each other - those who moved to the 'better' school did not do better than those who remained at the school whose results looked bad. In fact, my brother's best friend, who stayed at the 'bad' school, still managed to get into Cambridge to do maths.

I basically taught myself A Level biology. Our teacher was off sick for the majority of the time and they never got a proper substitute teacher; we were set work to do independently most of the time. I still got an A (no A* in those days!) despite having had not just bad teaching, but often no teaching! My sister had a similar situation with A Level chemistry. She was without a teacher a lot of the time. She still managed to get all A grades and get into Cambridge to do medicine.

So anyway my point is - and I think this applies to all levels of education - I actually don't think a genuinely academic, motivated and conscientious student can be too hindered by teaching. If anything, it is the 'lazy but fairly bright' middle that might suffer more in the presence of less than excellent teachers.

Bear in mind, private schools have ways of manipulating the results that they report. My stepdaughter attends a private school. Despite the cost of the school, she has always done very badly in exams. For her AS levels she bombed out and got atrocious results (all below D). Somehow the school still reported that year on their website that no one got less than a B! So apparently she and her results didn't exist?!

FBaby

You mention your daughter's med school ambitions a lot though, and often talk about how advanced/above average your children are. Please be careful about inadvertently putting her under pressure, one of the brightest girls I knew growing up ended up with a severe eating disorder and a suicide attempt in her first year of uni due to the stress of trying to meet high expectations, and barely speaks to her mother now.

I knew this would come up I can respect how this comse across from people who don't know my children. I can assure you that there is no pressure from me. The questioning came from meeting with her teachers and when I mentioned college to her science teacher, he said that from his point of view, it would be a mistake to send her to a college involving travelling every day because she is the type of pupil who will excel wherever she studies.

FBaby

thanks daisiegg, that's really telling.

Person_one

FBaby wrote: »

I knew this would come up I can respect how this comse across from people who don't know my children. I can assure you that there is no pressure from me. The questioning came from meeting with her teachers and when I mentioned college to her science teacher, he said that from his point of view, it would be a mistake to send her to a college involving travelling every day because she is the type of pupil who will excel wherever she studies.

Please, just bear it in mind as you go along, I'm not trying to criticise you but it was just tragic to see what this young woman went through.

onlyroz

daisiegg wrote: »

So anyway my point is - and I think this applies to all levels of education - I actually don't think a genuinely academic, motivated and conscientious student can be too hindered by teaching. If anything, it is the 'lazy but fairly bright' middle that might suffer more in the presence of less than excellent teachers.

I'd agree with this. I had some dreadful teachers who missed out whole chunks of the syllabus and so I just taught it myself and got straight As in everything. But a less motivated student would be more content to go with the flow.

Mojisola

By the time students are doing A levels in Maths, Chemistry and other science subjects, they are usually in a committed group so most of the behaviour problems that would affect performance are gone. As long as the teachers are reasonable, there's no reason why she shouldn't do well wherever she studies.

Even if there are problems with teachers - as daisiegg says - a determined student can find other ways. It's better if they don't have to but there is so much stuff available on the web these days that it's easier now than it has ever been.

Because so many students get the right grades these days, it helps if you can stand out by showing your commitment in other ways -
https://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/training-to-become-a-doctor/undergraduate-medical-education/entry-requirements-for-medical-school/
Applicants called for interview will face searching questions about their motivation, their work at school, hobbies and personal interests, as well as having to produce evidence of their academic achievements. A key question will be their reasons for wanting to become a doctor. Candidates should also be able to demonstrate relevant paid or voluntary work experience e.g. work as a hospital auxiliary, in nursing or residential care.

daisiegg

FBaby wrote: »

thanks daisiegg, that's really telling.

You're welcome.

I meant to add, as a teacher (and I hope not a bad one) I often feel pretty redundant with the absolute top students. I sometimes look at them and think 'you'd be doing just as well whether I was standing here or not!' You give them the information/material and they just fly with it. It is amazing to see. It is the middle - those trying to scrape from a B to an A or those trying to turn their C into a B - who I can really work with and help. And I suppose for them, a poor teacher might mean that the B stays a B and does not scrape into an A, and the C student who could possibly be encouraged to get a B just gets a C. But even in classes with 'bad' teachers, you get students achieving top grades - because they are just that good that they would get those grades no matter who taught them. If your daughter is like that - and you really are sure - then her teacher is right. She will thrive wherever she goes.