Would you expect work men to clean up afterwards?

Blackpool_Saver

Glad to see you typing 'my wife' now and not 'the wife'.

Seriously who are you employing? Where are you getting these cowboys from?

JustAnotherSaver

Blackpool_Saver wrote: »

Glad to see you typing 'my wife' now and not 'the wife'.

Seriously who are you employing? Where are you getting these cowboys from?

I'm not about to start naming them on a public forum. What's to say that i can't get done for something legally by bashing them on a public forum? I don't know whether i can or not so i'm not about to start finding out.

As for where they came from, you'll like this one....

The MSE masses said ... don't close your eyes & pick from the yellow pages. That's stupid. Get from a recommendation.

Right, so we ask friends & family. Nobody has had any builders in except one - wifes co-worker (notice i dropped the "the" and also the "my"? I don't know how a lack of either stacks up with your preferences, but on with the show...), this co-worker recommended these builders. Great stuff.

Out the boss came & all seemed well. Kept to time slots which other tradesmen couldn't be bothered to do. All vibes good.

The work, as i've said, looks good. It's just the other stuff.

Maybe blindly picking out of Yellow Pages may not be so bad after all?

lessonlearned

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Maybe blindly picking out of Yellow Pages may not be so bad after all?

If you do have to "go blind" then chose a trades person who is registered with one of the guilds appropriate to the particular trade in question. It gives a measure of protection.

But again my advice is, before you embark on a large project, always "test drive" the trades with smaller jobs first.

Re - payments.

Trades people do get badly stung.

My trusty plumber/heating engineer who is helping me to project manage one of my current renos once got caught for £14K from one of his clients. After months of constantly chasing said client my plumber eventually managed to recoup £9K. £5K is a big hit for anyone to have to swallow.

The current renos on Prop 2 are at £5300 so far, so I gave him a stage payment of £2K last week. He didn't ask I just volunteered it.

I have however known him and worked with him for around 10 years now.

In our particular case we did leave the carpets down throughout the worst of the work, partly because my son was living in the house whilst some of the work was being carried out. Leaving the carpets down kept him a bit warmer.

We also left them down because we weren't quite sure what we were going to do with the floors and we wanted to protect the floorboards just in case we decided to refinish them. As it is we won't bother because they aren't really good enough. The carpets will be lifted after the plastering and prior to painting.

However, we will be retaining the hall carpet right to the bitter end because it is protecting a lovely original Victorian Minton tiled floor. The last thing we want is heavy equipment being dragged along it creating gouges etc.

We did explain this to all of the trades and we told them not to worry about damaging the carpets.

It may well be that your plasterer made similar assumptions not realising that you intended to keep the carpets, so I wouldn't judge them too harshly on this. It may just be a misunderstanding.

Not only have I renovated my own houses I have worked in the construction industry myself for many years.

When it comes to dealing with the trades you really do have to help them by explaining exactly what you want done, provide diagrams and plans. In addition I a always mark out the position of sockets etc on the actual walls as well as on any plans.

You also need to be in constant touch with them - visiting them on site regularly. I visit at least every other day, sometimes daily.

You also need to be at the end of a phone. If they cannot get hold of you to ask questions or clarify issues then, because of time constraints, they may have to go ahead anyway. You cannot blame them if they then get it wrong.

If you are happy with the actual plastering then I would say that you need to just take the attitude "All's well that end's well". I know it's irritating but you can't put the clock back now.

Realistically the coffee stains on the worktop and floor, whilst annoying, are really no big deal. The damaged carpet is unfortunate but I think this is likely to be a case of "crossed wires". Because you didn't specifically mention that you wanted to keep the carpet the plasterer has obviously assumed that you weren't bothered. He should have checked with you but similarly you should have explained your wishes. Just put this one down to experience.

Again the issue of rubbish removal should have been discussed at the outset but at least you will know about that next time you have work done.

The door is extremely unfortunate and I agree that you have a right to be angry about this. You might be lucky and be able to effect a repair. You might be able to claim damages.

I realise that your experience has been difficult and unpleasant but don't let that sour the end result. You are satisfied that the plaster work is good - that's all that really matters.

Money - the bathroom has come in at £3500 but there were a lot of hidden extras. We found a fair few nasties. The plaster was blown on two walls and had to be redone, some floorboards were rotten and had to be replaced and some cowboy had built a stud partition wall between the bathroom and adjoining bedroom using cardboard:rotfl: We replaced the light fitting, added an extractor fan and reboarded and plastered the ceiling. We also had to reposition the soil stack - don't ask.;)

However - it was worth it - it looks fab-u-lous. Limestone tiles, fancy illuminated mirror, designer radiator the lot. As I say "dead posh".

lessonlearned

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

People with lots of money are buying in this area now, so I presume there might possibly be a good knock-on effect for me at some point from that?? It seems to be the case, as far as I can make out, that the dearer house hereabouts are going rather quicker than they did and maybe this will trickle down at some point to the cheaper ones?

Bet you managed to get that "dead posh" bathroom in that house for less than I did. Oh well...congratulations on that if you did:T

Just a quick reply - don't want to clog up the thread with my chatter!!!

Money - the more expensive houses always sell faster than the "mid range" ones - especially in a recession.

If rich folk are moving into your area then that bodes well for you. Hopefully it also bodes well for the local businesses in your area too, although the downside could be that the young people in your area might find themselves priced out of the market.

However, as long as the newcomers are not just weekenders or snapping up properties for holiday homes then your local community should benefit too. Local businesses may well thrive with the introduction of "new blood".

JustAnotherSaver

lessonlearned - thanks for your response. Just a few things i wanted to address..

lessonlearned wrote: »

But again my advice is, before you embark on a large project, always "test drive" the trades with smaller jobs first.

I know you mean if/when possible but in this case it wasn't. We have no smaller jobs really other than creating them which is unnecessary. Plus time is against us, but i get your point.

Re - payments.

Here's on i'd like to ask about payments...

When sending a large amount via bank transfer, do you make your initial payment small, to check it's gone over & then send the full whack, or do you just dive in? We have someone who wants paying via BT but i don't want there to be a digit wrong or something.

You also need to be in constant touch with them - visiting them on site regularly. I visit at least every other day, sometimes daily.

Would love to have done this but wasn't possible i'm afraid. We work 7am-6pm thereabouts which is before these people start & after they finish. The one day i was allowed to finish work early i called in, but that was it.

You also need to be at the end of a phone. If they cannot get hold of you to ask questions or clarify issues then, because of time constraints, they may have to go ahead anyway. You cannot blame them if they then get it wrong.

Agreed, this is why we gave them both our numbers, told them the primary number & if they can't get through try the other person.

If you are happy with the actual plastering then I would say that you need to just take the attitude "All's well that end's well". I know it's irritating but you can't put the clock back now.

True

Realistically the coffee stains on the worktop and floor, whilst annoying, are really no big deal.

I agree

The damaged carpet is unfortunate but I think this is likely to be a case of "crossed wires". Because you didn't specifically mention that you wanted to keep the carpet the plasterer has obviously assumed that you weren't bothered. He should have checked with you but similarly you should have explained your wishes. Just put this one down to experience.

Not sure i'm with you on this one.

Point is - where do you stop??

The hall wallpaper is semi-painted. So do we spell out to them - be careful around that paper, don't bash it as we're keeping it?

The french doors from living room to diner have been semi-stripped. Do we tell them not to break them because they may think they're no good? The previous owners dog has scratched at them so do we say don't gouge them to match?

I know i'm getting OTT here but you see the point i'm making i hope? - where do you stop spelling things out?

Again the issue of rubbish removal should have been discussed at the outset but at least you will know about that next time you have work done.

True

The door is extremely unfortunate and I agree that you have a right to be angry about this. You might be lucky and be able to effect a repair. You might be able to claim damages.

I've got a few other things to sort out first but i will be getting in touch. Not to rant, but to tell them i'm happy with ABC but not XYZ.

Mr_Ted

The simple answer to the basic question is YES, any place of work should be expected to be left in the same state as it was found, even a building site, tradesmen are not supposed to MAKE work for others!
As far as the issues of COSTS in respect of this then the BS being talked that its an extra is just that, BS, such things SHOULD be built into base determinations of either a rate charged for a tradesman's services, or the contract costs, and the breakdown of the T&C's should form part of a written contract, NOT form part of EXTRA costs :mad:

BUT there is another issue possible here and that is OP, IF you portray the same attitudes you have on here to tradesmen who have offered good advise, or when asked for clarity of some of your unclear and naive statements, then its quite possible you have been subjected to the repercussions of your own behavior

Treat people with a bit more respect when its YOU that needs help from them, and you will be more likely to get a positive response for your requirements

As for ME, there will be no more help forthcoming, as you manufacture your own difficulties and are not prepared, even though you are not sure of the requirements for what you require doing, to accept advise and the good knowledge available here from those that are experienced

lessonlearned

Hi there Saver

Right just to answer some of your questions.

1. Payments - I don't pay my trades by BT so someone else might need to advise you on this one.

Re not being there because of work commitments. I do understand how difficult it can be but I can truthfully say I would never expect my trades to work without touching base with them on a regular basis.

Regular site meetings are essential. It's not fair on your trades people to just leave them to it - they need your input and you need to check their work to make sure that they haven't made any mistakes or missed something.

This is not to suggest that they cannot work without supervision - of course they can - but it just makes things much easier for everyone if there is regular contact and feedback.

Obviously it depends on your line of work but you should be able to negotiate some flexibility or leeway with your employer. I've always been able to negotiate time off by either staying late, going in early, working through my lunch hours, taking work home etc.

If your employers will not countenance your absence for a short while then simply take a couple of days from your annual leave entitlement. You might think it's a waste of your holiday but it really isn't.

Yes you do have to spell everything out, in writing.

It's called a "Schedule of Works". You agree it with your trades person.

The schedule should contain detailed instructions of exactly what you want doing, the materials to be used, what happens with rubbish removal. It is at this point that you can say - carpets will remain in place etc. The schedule should also contain any room plans, drawings or sketches if necessary.

When you instructed your plasterer yes you should have mentioned that you wanted to retain the wallpaper. He probably assumed you would be replacing it so he didn't need to be uber careful. Yes he assumed wrongly but if you did not tell him then how was he to know.

I cannot stress enough - your instructions have to be crystal clear. Even then there will be crossed wires at times so yes you really do have to available to discuss things with them. In all fairness trades people are not mind readers.

They will also be working against the clock so they will usually take the quickest option.

The same applies to the French Doors.

Seeing the semi stripped state of the doors he might have guessed that you were in the process of trying to repair and renovate them, however, by your own admission they were scratched and gouged so he may just have assumed you were going to replace them.

Yes he should have checked but similarly you could have pointed this out to him. As it is you were not around to discuss it.

I know it sounds as if I am nitpicking over details but the reality is when you employ someone to do something for you then you have to be explicit about what you want done (and what you don't want done).

You cannot leave it to their guesswork or there will be mistakes and misunderstandings. You should not leave anything open to mis-interpretation.

We've just had a partial rewire done. The itemised schedule of works for this job came to 3 pages long, with 3 extra pages of diagrams. Took me a couple of hours to do. I marked the walls for the sockets. I also had two site meetings with the electrician. I still had 3 phone calls from him so he could double check a couple of things with me.

You probably thinkI'm the one being OTT here but my point is yes you really do have to spell things out, often several times over.:rotfl:

If your trades are any good they will be very busy people, often working on more than one job at once. They cannot remember everything single detail for each job.

Better to over-explain than leave it to chance. You simply have to make sure you dot every "i" and cross every "t".

As any architect worth their salt will tell you

"God is in the detail".;)

Saver - the best advice I can give you is make this a learning experience.

You know what you need to do next time.

PS Just edited to say - when it comes to building work attention to detail will pay dividends - saving time and money - keeping to the time scales and staying on budget.

lessonlearned

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

lessonlearned - thanks for your response. Just a few things i wanted to address.. I know you mean if/when possible but in this case it wasn't. We have no smaller jobs really other than creating them which is unnecessary. Plus time is against us, but i get your point.

Never give a big job to a complete stranger - even if they do come "highly recommended" Try them out first.

Here's an example.

One of our renos is a Money Pit. It's ok we knew before we bought it.;)

We knew there would be an extensive programme of works and we also knew that we had to wait for a meeting with a conservation officer before we could begin. However, there were a couple of urgent issues that simply had to be dealt with. One was the electrics so we got our electrician in to do some emergency remedials. Good job we did - live wires all over the place!!!

The rest were simple temporary quick fixes well within the remit of a competent diyer or handy person. I could do them myself if I wasn't so ancient and decrepit:rotfl:

I was recommended a "reliable, honest, trustworthy and competent odd job man" Ha!!

I tried him out for 2 days with some simple tasks.

The man was a disaster. His skills were mediocre at best, he was wasteful with materials, and he tried to spin out each task to take as long as he could. He was also a very dirty worker and left everywhere in a shocking state.

He must have thought he could pull the wool over my eyes. Luckily I had only committed to a couple of days. Frankly I couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

He shot himself in the foot because had he been up to scratch I could have given him at least three months work on that one house alone. I would have kept him on my favoured trades person list and would have worked with him on repeat jobs. I would have recommended him to other people.

As it is when he had the cheek to ring me a couple of weeks later to see if we were ready to begin the works I graciously declined an offer of his services :rotfl::rotfl:

Spirit_2

That's the wallpaper they ripped off while plastering the wall you see.
The wife cleared the paper on the wall requiring plastering but purposely left the paper on the wall that'd been ripped. Neither of us are a fan of that paper, so she wanted to paint it.

I'm no expert, but i'd say that now can't be painted because it'll surely show through & stand out, as it isn't even. It doesn't run to the edge, but runs around the edge, so to take it off you're going to have to take a lot off & the last time we stripped that paper it lifted the plaster.

So short of re-papering i'm not too sure what can be done. It can't even be left, which would've originally been an option, as it looks bloody ridiculous now.

Not too sure why it needed ripping. Surely it can't be to work the plaster into the edge, as then they would've needed to rip the ceiling paper off as well when working into that edge.

Not impressed by that one at all.[/QUOTE]

I think the plasterer has been reasonable in taking the wallpaper back to complete the corner. That would have been my expectation. If he had only plastered to the edge and in doing so 'trapped' wallpaper behind the edge of the plaster I would have been irritated when I subsequently wanted rid of the wallpaper.

DRP

lessonlearned wrote: »

Hi there Saver ...


Yes you do have to spell everything out, in writing.

Great post and that sentence sums it up really