How much is 'enough' for a single pensioner?

Parsimonia

getmore4less wrote: »

It needs the terms of the trust,

Did all 4 beneficiaries agree to give her the money or just 2 of them?

All 4 beneficiaries agreed for her to sell the house and live on the released equity, on the understanding that the smaller house would be split 4 ways when she finally died.

getmore4less wrote: »

How has this been documented.

To be honest, I think it was a 'gentlemen's agreement' - I'm not sure there's anything in writing that sets it out in black and white - the step-sons just assumed that £100k was enough for her to live on, and didn't dream for a moment that she would disinherit them or propose selling the smaller house to release the equity. I think they trust her to do the honourable thing....

getmore4less wrote: »

What part did the family friend play in overseeing this they should know there job and the terms of the trust.

The family friend is 89, so hasn't really taken an active role. It was all done in a very civilised and informal way. There wasn't any formal will-reading that I recall, because FIL had left everything to MIL. However, he had made it very clear (both verbally and in the will) that in leaving her the house, this was as a life interest only. He then specified that, following her death, the estate had to be split equally between all 4 children.

I recall my hubby and his sister commenting privately at the time that that was a very kind and generous thing for him to do, given that he'd contributed over 75% of the value of the house, and therefore it would have been understandable if he'd left the lion's share of the estate to his own blood children. They didn't think that their mum would have been so fair-handed if the boot had been on the other foot.

Then, once it became apparent that she was struggling to cope on her income, the step-sons were the ones to suggest that she sell and downsize to release equity to live on. Hubby and his sister were also more than happy to agree to this...so the house was sold and the bungalow was bought in her name.

So...the situation now is that she is living in a property bought outright that is owned in her name, and she thinks she's perfectly entitled to sell it to release the equity. I think she's quietening her conscience by saying things such as "Well, I need money to live!" and "Let's be honest, I never inherited a penny off my parents! I had to stand on my own two feet and it didn't do me any harm. So why should I feel obliged to leave anything when I'm gone?"

When she says things like this, we point out that she has a moral obligation to leave something to the stepsons as its what her 2nd husband wanted...but it falls to a certain extent on deaf ears. She picks fault in the stepsons so that she feels less guilty about treating them shabbily.

We've never had the front to say she's also being a bit selfish in spend-spend-spending instead of at least trying to leave a little for her own children too. As I've said, my hubby fully expects her to outlive him, so we've not got any ulterior motive, but we do think it's wrong of her to spend everything on herself, when her daughter lives on a really modest income and would really benefit from a modest inheritance.

However, SIL, like my hubby, is more concerned with her doing right by the stepsons....they seem to have a real claim to be treated honourably...

seven-day-weekend

She may be very kind to animals, but she's not very kind to her own children or her stepsons, is she, nor is she apparently bothered about her late husband's wishes (and it was his money after all).

I don't know what to suggest, you can't make her see how unrealistic she is being with her extravagant lifestyle and expectations of income.

How does she think others live? Or does she not want to think about that because it would mean she would have to think about her own spendthrift habits?

If it is her house owned by her directly and there is nothing written then I suppose there is nothing to stop her selling it or leaving it to Battersea Dog's Home

It highlights one thing though - NEVER have a gentleman's agreement about financial and legal matters because people don't always behave like gentlemen (or ladies). Get it all signed and witnessed legally.

I hope you all manage to get it sorted.

Parsimonia

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

She may be very kind to animals, but she's not very kind to her own children or her stepsons, is she, nor is she apparently bothered about her late husband's wishes (and it was his money after all).

I don't know what to suggest, you can't make her see how unrealistic she is being with her extravagant lifestyle and expectations of income.

How does she think others live? Or does she not want to think about that because it would mean she would have to think about her own spendthrift habits?

If it is her house owned by her directly and there is nothing written then I suppose there is nothing to stop her selling it or leaving it to Battersea Dog's Home

It highlights one thing though - NEVER have a gentleman's agreement about financial and legal matters because people don't always behave like gentlemen (or ladies). Get it all signed and witnessed legally.

I hope you all manage to get it sorted.

Thank you! This is why failure isn't an option! We have to keep chipping away at her defences in order to safeguard the house for the step-sons.

We see it as a positive step that she's given us her cards and agreed to come with us every Sunday for our weekly shop at Aldi.

We're not giving up just because it's difficult, demoralising and a thankless task. If we manage to keep her solvent and in this house it'll be worth the blood, sweat and tears!!!

And yes - sadly I think gentlemen's agreements are a very unsafe way of safeguarding something....which makes me sad!

Pollycat

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

She may be very kind to animals, but she's not very kind to her own children or her stepsons, is she, nor is she apparently bothered about her late husband's wishes (and it was his money after all).

I agree 100% with this.

The more I read about this woman, the more I'm appalled.

TBH - I don't think I can comment on anything that Parsimonia has said in her post #62.

I'm speechless! :eek:
And that's very, very rare.

Parsimonia

Pollycat wrote: »

I agree 100% with this.

The more I read about this woman, the more I'm appalled.

TBH - I don't think I can comment on anything that Parsimonia has said in her post #62.

I'm speechless! :eek:
And that's very, very rare.

:(:(:(

I hope no one thinks for a moment that I condone what MIL does/thinks...I think it's appalling too. But instead of wiping my hands of her (how would that help the stepsons?), or wringing them in despair, I need to feel I'm doing something practical to help resolve the situation...albeit it sometimes feels like I'm trying to hold back the tide with a teaspoon.

seven-day-weekend

Parsimonia wrote: »

:(:(:(

I hope no one thinks for a moment that I condone what MIL does/thinks...I think it's appalling too. But instead of wiping my hands of her (how would that help the stepsons?), or wringing them in despair, I need to feel I'm doing something practical to help resolve the situation...albeit it sometimes feels like I'm trying to hold back the tide with a teaspoon.

I agree that you are doing the right thing for all concerned in trying to help her, Parsimonia. I just hope you are not fighting a losing battle!

Pollycat

Parsimonia wrote: »

:(:(:(

I hope no one thinks for a moment that I condone what MIL does/thinks...I think it's appalling too. But instead of wiping my hands of her (how would that help the stepsons?), or wringing them in despair, I need to feel I'm doing something practical to help resolve the situation...albeit it sometimes feels like I'm trying to hold back the tide with a teaspoon.

I don't think that at all, Parsimonia.

However, I think I may be inclined to tip the stepsons off about her actions.
That would help the stepsons by alerting them to her proposed actions and let them know why she's treating them in the way you describe in post #36.

I personally couldn't stand by and let anyone be treated in such a shoddy manner - and I think I would be having strong words with my partner and his sister about what they should be doing to stop this woman ruining not only her life but those of other people who don't seem to deserve it.

Parsimonia

Pollycat wrote: »

I don't think that at all, Parsimonia.

However, I think I may be inclined to tip the stepsons off about her actions.
That would help the stepsons by alerting them to her proposed actions and let them know why she's treating them in the way you describe in post #36.

I personally couldn't stand by and let anyone be treated in such a shoddy manner - and I think I would be having strong words with my partner and his sister about what they should be doing to stop this woman ruining not only her life but those of other people who don't seem to deserve it.

When we got our first inkling that she was thinking of equity release, hubby phoned both stepbrothers to give them a heads-up and advised them to contact a solicitor urgently to discuss. Both expressed disbelief that she would do something so selfish (MIL is very charming and the stepsons are old-school and rather naive!), but they did both come for a brief post-Christmas visit to (I assume) try to broach the subject and see if there was any cause for concern.

As far as we know, they returned to Cumbria none the wiser, as MIL refused to discuss the subject and said her finances were her own affair....I think it was quite a strained visit, as the stepsons are very gentlemanly and didn't feel able to press the point.

The stepbrothers know we're worried about her profligacy, but I'm not sure they know how dire her finances truly are. Hubby wrote them a letter last week telling them we think all but £5000 of the capital is gone, and he also told them that she has a good income (not a pittance). So far we've not heard back from the stepsons, so we're not sure what to do next.

As I mentioned in a previous post, both stepsons are in poor health (one has quite advanced MS and the other has COPD and whilst he's not yet on round-the-clock oxygen, he does struggle to do day-to-day things. Neither has the personality or the strength for an all-out battle.

Hubby and I don't know what to do next....as the house is legally hers, bought and paid for, I think what she's proposing may be legal, even if it's totally unethical and unprincipled.

So we've decided our best tack is to prevent her needing to release the equity by helping her to budget better...if we can keep her solvent she won't need to sell, and that protects the stepsons' inheritance by a round-about way.

margaretclare

I can speak with some experience about equity release. We did it in 2003 just to pay off an existing mortgage. We saw no point in going on making mortgage payments, to pay off the mortgage by the time we were 83, just in time to die and leave it all to someone else. We were strongly influenced by the fact that my younger daughter had died very suddenly and unexpectedly at the end of 2002 and relationship with elder daughter has always been - difficult, shall we say. We could see much better uses for the £260 or so going on mortgage repayments.

That said, we should not have done this for any other cause whatsoever. Certainly not to raise money for normal living expenses.

At the time, we were interviewed by our conveyancing solicitor who had a check-list of points which he had to go through. One point was: were we aware of the implications for possible future claiming means-tested benefits? And the other was: were our relatives aware of what we were planning and were they in agreement - the possible effect on any inheritance was referred to.

For a woman who has used up the proceeds from an earlier house sale, frittered it all away seemingly, equity release would be a disastrous step.

Parsimonia

margaretclare wrote: »

For a woman who has used up the proceeds from an earlier house sale, frittered it all away seemingly, equity release would be a disastrous step.

I've not pulled any punches on the subject of equity release - I've told her until I'm blue in the face that she is crazy to contemplate it, and that she could end up losing everything. Not even to mention the dubious ethics...

Unfortunately she has a friend who keeps urging her to do it, and convincing her that it's the perfect solution and the answer to all her prayers. The friend makes it sound as though she gets to keep her cake and eat it - the friend has (erroneously) told her that she gets the entire value of the house paid into her bank, then carries on living rent/mortgage/cost free in the house until she dies, at which point the house is reclaimed by the bank to recover their investment. She keeps says that there will be money remaining in the bank from the equity release to provide an inheritance for the 4 children.

We've told her that's a load of tosh - that she needs to pay the interest on the loan, so it's not a case of living completely rent/mortgage free...but she thinks she's right and we're wrong. I printed off some factsheets from the web to put her right, she refused to read them...

Because the friend is encouraging her to do something she wants to do, whilst I on the other hand am urging her to do something she doesn't want to do, the friend is having considerable more influence...

Sigh.....