How much is 'enough' for a single pensioner?

itsanne

Parsimonia wrote: »

All 4 beneficiaries agreed for her to sell the house and live on the released equity, on the understanding that the smaller house would be split 4 ways when she finally died.



To be honest, I think it was a 'gentlemen's agreement' - I'm not sure there's anything in writing that sets it out in black and white - the step-sons just assumed that £100k was enough for her to live on, and didn't dream for a moment that she would disinherit them or propose selling the smaller house to release the equity. I think they trust her to do the honourable thing....


The family friend is 89, so hasn't really taken an active role. It was all done in a very civilised and informal way. There wasn't any formal will-reading that I recall, because FIL had left everything to MIL. However, he had made it very clear (both verbally and in the will) that in leaving her the house, this was as a life interest only. He then specified that, following her death, the estate had to be split equally between all 4 children.

I recall my hubby and his sister commenting privately at the time that that was a very kind and generous thing for him to do, given that he'd contributed over 75% of the value of the house, and therefore it would have been understandable if he'd left the lion's share of the estate to his own blood children. They didn't think that their mum would have been so fair-handed if the boot had been on the other foot.

Then, once it became apparent that she was struggling to cope on her income, the step-sons were the ones to suggest that she sell and downsize to release equity to live on. Hubby and his sister were also more than happy to agree to this...so the house was sold and the bungalow was bought in her name.

So...the situation now is that she is living in a property bought outright that is owned in her name, and she thinks she's perfectly entitled to sell it to release the equity. I think she's quietening her conscience by saying things such as "Well, I need money to live!" and "Let's be honest, I never inherited a penny off my parents! I had to stand on my own two feet and it didn't do me any harm. So why should I feel obliged to leave anything when I'm gone?"

When she says things like this, we point out that she has a moral obligation to leave something to the stepsons as its what her 2nd husband wanted...but it falls to a certain extent on deaf ears. She picks fault in the stepsons so that she feels less guilty about treating them shabbily.

We've never had the front to say she's also being a bit selfish in spend-spend-spending instead of at least trying to leave a little for her own children too. As I've said, my hubby fully expects her to outlive him, so we've not got any ulterior motive, but we do think it's wrong of her to spend everything on herself, when her daughter lives on a really modest income and would really benefit from a modest inheritance.

However, SIL, like my hubby, is more concerned with her doing right by the stepsons....they seem to have a real claim to be treated honourably...

Okay, all four beneficiaries agreed the sale of the original house. That does not mean they lost their entitlement to their inheritance once the new house is sold. It is possible to change the beneficiaries of a will by a deed of variation, but there are strict rules and a timescale for this, and it is certainly not what happened here. A will cannot simply be ignored. To be honest, I don't understand why the solicitor involved in the house sale did not raise major concerns. Your MIL cannot unilaterally decide that the will no longer counts because the house is now in her name. You need to tell her that the house is not hers in the way she thinks it is.

MIL wasn't struggling to cope on her income. She wanted to have more. It's not the same thing. If that was what the stepsons were told, they have lost part of their inheritance through false pretenses. I don't think it's enough to be suggesting that MIL has a moral obligation towards the stepsons, especially as she has no morals where money is concerned - she almost certainly has a legal obligation too. As far as not having "the front" to say she's a "bit" selfish is concerned, if you are trying to help her with finances you will have to bite the bullet and tell her not that she's a "bit" selfish but that she is completely self-centred about the money. She is also dishonest.

Parsimonia, this has the potential to become a very serious mess. You really need to get some legal advice before MIL is able to do any more damage. As before, I'd suggest Citizens' Advice or solicitors' free consultation.


It's been suggested that MIL has an addiction to spending. If her addiction was to alcohol, people would not have been bending over backwards to give her more when she thought she needed it. It might help to view the need not to enable her spending in the same way as not enabling an alcoholic to acquire alcohol. I realise that you are now trying to curb MIL's spending, but it does sound as if everyone has pandered to her greed until now, whether because they've had wrong information or because they've simply accepted that's how she is.

I don't envy you trying to tackle this, especially when you are so much less unsympathetic towards MIL than the rest of us!

itsanne

(Posts 70 and 71 posted while I was writing 72.)

Parsimonia wrote: »

:(:(:(

I hope no one thinks for a moment that I condone what MIL does/thinks...I think it's appalling too. But instead of wiping my hands of her (how would that help the stepsons?), or wringing them in despair, I need to feel I'm doing something practical to help resolve the situation...albeit it sometimes feels like I'm trying to hold back the tide with a teaspoon.

There's no way you come across as condoning MIL. Trying to address her budgeting is a very appropriate approach to take.

Parsimonia wrote: »

Hubby and I don't know what to do next....as the house is legally hers, bought and paid for, I think what she's proposing may be legal, even if it's totally unethical and unprincipled.

PLEASE also get legal advice to check what the situation actually is. I cannot see any way in which MIL can have legally got around the will's stipulations, especially through a "gentleman's agreement". The best thing would be for you to have this unambiguously clarified one way or another. At least then you'd know what you were fighting against.

Parsimonia

itsanne wrote: »

You need to tell her that the house is not hers in the way she thinks it is.

I don't think it's enough to be suggesting that MIL has a moral obligation towards the stepsons, especially as she has no morals where money is concerned - she almost certainly has a legal obligation too.

As far as not having "the front" to say she's a "bit" selfish is concerned, if you are trying to help her with finances you will have to bite the bullet and tell her not that she's a "bit" selfish but that she is completely self-centred about the money. She is also dishonest.

You really need to get some legal advice before MIL is able to do any more damage. As before, I'd suggest Citizens' Advice or solicitors' free consultation.


It's been suggested that MIL has an addiction to spending. If her addiction was to alcohol, people would not have been bending over backwards to give her more when she thought she needed it. It might help to view the need not to enable her spending in the same way as not enabling an alcoholic to acquire alcohol. I realise that you are now trying to curb MIL's spending, but it does sound as if everyone has pandered to her greed until now, whether because they've had wrong information or because they've simply accepted that's how she is.

I don't envy you trying to tackle this, especially when you are so much less unsympathetic towards MIL than the rest of us!

We had an appointment with an adviser at the CAB last week but they said we needed specialist advice, so they referred us to our local legal charity and we have a 30 minute appointment with a solicitor this coming Friday morning. They've asked us to take along a copy of the will and a copy of the house deeds, and unfortunately we have neither, so we're hoping they'll still be able to help.

We urged the stepsons to also seek legal advice, but we don't think they have thus far....

To my knowledge only MIL has a copy of the will and the house deeds.

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept out of this now....this will be the 3rd day I've had to take off work in two weeks to seek advice about this (2 x CAB appointments, now this solicitor appointment)...it was bad enough taking time off work trying to fight hubby's appeal against losing his benefit, now just as we give up that fight (having lost!) we find ourselves embroiled in another battle.

I have zero sympathy for MIL re her inability to cope on her income - I thought I'd made that clear. I thought I'd also made it crystal clear that I think that her behaviour is reprehensible - but I don't have the legal knowledge to know for certain that her behaviour is also illegal, so I'm not about to accuse her of illegality/theft/fraud/dishonesty until I've had that confirmed categorically by a solicitor. I guess I'll have a clearer idea on that score on Friday - but maybe not, as I can't produce a copy of the will to show the solicitor.

mrschaucer

Assuming probate was done correctly following her husband's death, anybody can apply for a copy of the Grant for £6. See here http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills
Unfortunately, it seems to take four weeks!

Bella73

Sorry if any if this has been covered, I've not read all the replies.

I think you need to take her on a "day trip".

Before you do, find the worst part of town that she would hate and find a flat (not a house) for sale in a cheap bit of town that she would hate and get her to visit the "home" she is really heading for, then take her to the charity shops where she will end up buying her clothes from.

Then give her the funds that she would get from a state pension and make her live on it for a month, sounds cruel but unless she wants a miserable time for the rest of her days she needs a wake up call.

Show her physically what she is heading for and it might help her...to be honest I doubt it. It it might.

Are you sure she is fully competent to be running her financial affairs? Sounds doollaley to me but then I could manage very well on her income with no mortgage.

She sounds like a selfish person who needs a slap but as you can't do that, maybe you need to explain that once the money is gone that will be it, there will be no more bail outs as there is nobody with the funds.

As she is a bouquet type person, maybe "threaten" to tell her friends as well, she would be horrified if they knew.

itsanne

Parsimonia wrote: »

We had an appointment with an adviser at the CAB last week but they said we needed specialist advice, so they referred us to our local legal charity and we have a 30 minute appointment with a solicitor this coming Friday morning. They've asked us to take along a copy of the will and a copy of the house deeds, and unfortunately we have neither, so we're hoping they'll still be able to help.

We urged the stepsons to also seek legal advice, but we don't think they have thus far....

To my knowledge only MIL has a copy of the will and the house deeds.

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept out of this now....this will be the 3rd day I've had to take off work in two weeks to seek advice about this (2 x CAB appointments, now this solicitor appointment)...it was bad enough taking time off work trying to fight hubby's appeal against losing his benefit, now just as we give up that fight (having lost!) we find ourselves embroiled in another battle.

I have zero sympathy for MIL re her inability to cope on her income - I thought I'd made that clear. I thought I'd also made it crystal clear that I think that her behaviour is reprehensible - but I don't have the legal knowledge to know for certain that her behaviour is also illegal, so I'm not about to accuse her of illegality/theft/fraud/dishonesty until I've had that confirmed categorically by a solicitor. I guess I'll have a clearer idea on that score on Friday - but maybe not, as I can't produce a copy of the will to show the solicitor.

Sorry, Parsimonia - if I'd realised you were already seeking legal advice I wouldn't have kept pushing for it. You must be tearing your hair out!

Mrschaucer has already given you the link I was about to, but I didn't realise it would take four weeks, so that's not much help for Friday. Depending on how urgently you think MIL plans to act, it might be worth postponing Friday's appointment. If you think things might move too quickly, maybe you could ask MIL for copies of both the will and deeds "to check things for her"?

After the beginning, where I don't think you were, you have been clear about your opinion of MIL's stance with regard to the money and stepsons. It's been a bit masked at times because you've appeared to be defending her when trying to make us understand why she's not the ogre the rest of us think she is, but I'm sorry to have come on strongly enough to have upset you.

You may be wishing you hadn't started, and I can't say I blame you, but you may well prevent big trouble for someone you and your husband care about. I hope MIL appreciates you!

Parsimonia

itsanne wrote: »

Sorry, Parsimonia - if I'd realised you were already seeking legal advice I wouldn't have kept pushing for it. You must be tearing your hair out!

Mrschaucer has already given you the link I was about to, but I didn't realise it would take four weeks, so that's not much help for Friday. Depending on how urgently you think MIL plans to act, it might be worth postponing Friday's appointment. If you think things might move too quickly, maybe you could ask MIL for copies of both the will and deeds "to check things for her"?

Good idea! If she doesn't fall for that I'll postpone Friday's appointment and send off for a copy of the filed will. I don't think she's about to do anything imminently, so I don't think a 4 week delay will be a problem.

After the beginning, where I don't think you were, you have been clear about your opinion of MIL's stance with regard to the money and stepsons. It's been a bit masked at times because you've appeared to be defending her when trying to make us understand why she's not the ogre the rest of us think she is, but I'm sorry to have come on strongly enough to have upset you.

No worries! I was beginning to feel a bit beleaguered, but I feel better now! But that's partly my fault, as I thought I'd mentioned that we'd already sought legal advice, but I've reread the whole thread and realised I hadn't mentioned that vital piece of information!

You may be wishing you hadn't started, and I can't say I blame you, but you may well prevent big trouble for someone you and your husband care about. I hope MIL appreciates you!

At the moment she probably doesn't, but I hope in time she realises we have her interests at heart.

getmore4less

This needs some serious pro advice

There is still the issue of could the trustees allow this sale and giving away of the proceeds.

by all beneficiaries agreeing to this they may have dissolved the trust and no longer have an interest.

itsanne

Bella73 wrote: »

Sorry if any if this has been covered, I've not read all the replies.

I think you need to take her on a "day trip".

Before you do, find the worst part of town that she would hate and find a flat (not a house) for sale in a cheap bit of town that she would hate and get her to visit the "home" she is really heading for, then take her to the charity shops where she will end up buying her clothes from.

Then give her the funds that she would get from a state pension and make her live on it for a month, sounds cruel but unless she wants a miserable time for the rest of her days she needs a wake up call.

Show her physically what she is heading for and it might help her...to be honest I doubt it. It it might.

Are you sure she is fully competent to be running her financial affairs? Sounds doollaley to me but then I could manage very well on her income with no mortgage.

She sounds like a selfish person who needs a slap but as you can't do that, maybe you need to explain that once the money is gone that will be it, there will be no more bail outs as there is nobody with the funds.

As she is a bouquet type person, maybe "threaten" to tell her friends as well, she would be horrified if they knew.

I think you should read a bit more of the thread .

margaretclare

If you're going with her to her solicitor's appointment tomorrow, it would be a good idea to mention 'equity release'. I know you said she has a friend who is encouraging her in this direction. One has to wonder - what is said friend's interest in this? What's in it for him/her, in other words?

I can't emphasise too much - equity release can work; it has worked for us. It has saved us the monthly mortgage payments which has been a blessing, since we've needed to have the roof replaced (asbestos tiles replaced with pantiles), and some more serious outdoor work done, as well as insulation in the loft space. Definitely not 'cosmetic' home improvements, but real solid ones. We've been guaranteed security, no negative equity, and as the Bank Rate has been historically so low for so long, the debt hasn't rolled up at anything like the rate that some people warned us of. But equity release is like marriage in the old Prayer Book - not to be taken in hand inadvisedly, lightly or wantonly.

I've frequently seen glowing advertising about older people using the equity in their home almost like money in the bank, to draw on to give them a more comfortable retirement, foreign holidays, presents for grandchildren, happy smiling couples with glasses of wine in their hands.

When I think of how I struggled to keep the roof above my head those years of widowhood in the 1990s, I wouldn't put it at risk for any reason whatever. Normally a person's home is their most valuable asset and should be protected.

As regards her argument 'no one ever left me a thing', well, I sympathise with that view to some extent. I grew up in the direst poverty, but the people among whom I grew up bequeathed me no money, but strong values, a savings habit and a work ethic, all of which have stood me in very good stead over the years. DH was never left anything by his parents either. Your MIL is in a somewhat different position. 'No one left her a thing' - not true. She was left valuable assets from her two marriages and she has a responsibility.