Sucralose, Sacharrin, etc - the difference?

terra_ferma

senileturtle wrote: »

I wouldn't trust any website or org advocating cow's milk when we are not meant to drink it at all. It is naturally made for a calf's needs, not ours and creates high risk of osteoporosis. Any mammal should not be consuming milk after weaning. Most of the world has some degree of lactose intolerance for a reason. Dairy lobby's are powerful and good at spreading milk myths also.

Generally speaking I don't agree with that, I'm not going to take this thread off topic, I'll just say that I'm at the end of my first week dairy free, and I'm almost certainly going back to dairy after I've done my 2 or 3 weeks test diet as it doesn't look like dairy is the food that's causing me problems.
I will keep drinking almond milk shakes because it doesn't froth and tastes really good.
However, as usual, I'm always looking to learn new things, so I'd be interested to look at the evidence about the osteoporosis, as it's the first I've heard of it (not picking a fight, just wanting to find out more, I promise ).
Also wanted to say, plenty of other foods have calcium, middle aged women in particular if they go dairy free need to make sure they eat plenty of those foods

EDIT found a recent study that looks very interesting (although have not found any that shows that milk is actually detrimental - however it's likely that the dairy industry is in a better position to fund studies that show milk is good for you). BMD=bone mineral density.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3641848/

In conclusion, our results suggest that, among this population of largely middle-aged men and women, higher total dairy, milk and yogurt intakes are associated with higher BMD. This effect was not observed for cheese and cream intake. No significant associations were observed for dairy intake and the risk of hip fracture except for milk and yogurt intake, which showed a marginally significant protective effect. Future studies should consider nutrient profiles of specific dairy groups while researching into their associations with bone health. Lastly, more data are needed to better understand the association of dairy foods with hip fracture risk in men and women.

brook2jack

Teas, particularly green but even normal black tea, are excellent for teeth if drunk without sugar (ie no sugar containing milk substitute), as they contain very high levels of fluoride.

Herbal teas such as camomile , peppermint are also excellent but beware of fruit flavoured teas as contain sugar and are very acidic (some more than orange juice) so should be drunk as part of a meal etc but not an everyday drink.

Unfortunately rice milk contains sugar , about a teaspoon a serving , hazelnut and rice a bit more about a spoon and a half per serving http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/detail/403134_Rice_Dream_Hazelnut_Almond_Drink_1ltr.html
So should be avoided if you follow your dentists advice.

brook2jack

Nb it is very difficult to put up scientific studies on here as many are only available via subscription or medical professional sites. So I put up what is available to the general public. However there are many dental studies and clinical studies on soya. All of which point to the increased risk of decay as soya helps mouth bacteria to use the sugar put in soya products to make them palatable. It's why soya milks are normally only given to babies for the shortest time possible (lactose intolerance normally ceases at around 18 months in these children) as it can cause severe decay.

This is from UNICEF and is about infant soy milk but equally applies to adult soy milk

Soya formula is made from soya beans not cow’s milk. Soya–based infant formulas have a high phytoestrogen content and it has been known for some time that this may pose a long–term reproductive health risk (Committee onToxicity 2003).The Chief Medical Officer has advised (since 2004) that soya–based infant formulas should not be used as the first choice for the management of infants with proven cow’s milk sensitivity, lactose intolerance, galactokinase deficiency and galactosaemia (BNF 2009). As well as the risks to reproductive health, there have also been concerns that exposure to soya proteins can adversely affect babies with hypothyroidism and provoke allergy. (Sampson, 1988; Businco et al, 1992). In addition, up to 60 per cent of infants with cow milk protein–induced enterocolitis will be equally sensitive to soy protein (Eastham, 1989; Burks et al., 1994; Whitington and Gibson, 1997).
Much of this information is reflected in the advice available to the general public on the Food Standards Agency website (https://www.food.gov.uk), yet soya–based artificial baby milks are still available in supermarkets and pharmacies and are promoted to health professionals. Parents can feed their babies soya–based artificial milk without ever having consulted a health professional, even though this is recommended in the small print on the tin/packet.The only health advice that is given (on the tin) relates to dental hygiene as soya–based formula contains more sugars from non–milk sources than cow’s milk–based formulas and are considered more cariogenic (likely to cause tooth decay), so most parents will be unaware of other possible adverse health effects. Parents at particular risk in this category include vegans and those who drink (adult) soya milk and may assume that their baby will also gain health benefits from drinking soya–based artificial baby milk (Martyn 2003).

terra_ferma

Good I'm glad to see the general agreement is still that drinking a glass of unsweetened soya or almond milk won't harm teeth because of the negligible level of sugar. (although I would definitely recommend almond over soya, I've just tried Alpro's roast almond version is really yummy, even managed to convert my OH who doesn't like the taste of milk).

brook2jack

Unfortunately the unsweetened versions of soya and nut milks are a minority buy in this country. The best selling versions are basically flavoured sugar water. Always read ingredients because they are placed in order of highest concentration to lowest.

Oat and rice drinks even when unsweetened have the equivalent of a spoon of sugar per serving naturally.

So you have to be very careful when selecting a milk substitute drink as the vast majority contain sugar and all flavoured varieties do.

Of course adding fruit to any of these drinks is basically adding sugar as well a minimum of a spoon depending on amount.

Op is trying to find drinks that are sugar free and additive free and if drinking cows milk substitutes beware as most will contain sugar and you have to study labels carefully.

senileturtle

terra_ferma wrote: »

Good I'm glad to see the general agreement is still that drinking a glass of unsweetened soya or almond milk won't harm teeth because of the negligible level of sugar. (although I would definitely recommend almond over soya, I've just tried Alpro's roast almond version is really yummy, even managed to convert my OH who doesn't like the taste of milk).

Roast almond? Not heard of that one.

terra_ferma wrote: »

Generally speaking I don't agree with that, I'm not going to take this thread off topic, I'll just say that I'm at the end of my first week dairy free, and I'm almost certainly going back to dairy after I've done my 2 or 3 weeks test diet as it doesn't look like dairy is the food that's causing me problems.
I will keep drinking almond milk shakes because it doesn't froth and tastes really good.
However, as usual, I'm always looking to learn new things, so I'd be interested to look at the evidence about the osteoporosis, as it's the first I've heard of it (not picking a fight, just wanting to find out more, I promise ).
Also wanted to say, plenty of other foods have calcium, middle aged women in particular if they go dairy free need to make sure they eat plenty of those foods

EDIT found a recent study that looks very interesting (although have not found any that shows that milk is actually detrimental - however it's likely that the dairy industry is in a better position to fund studies that show milk is good for you). BMD=bone mineral density.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3641848/

http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/12/13120.aspx

http://life.nationalpost.com/2014/01/23/drinking-milk-not-essential-for-humans-despite-belief-it-prevents-osteoporosis-nutritionist-says/

http://www.rense.com/general67/milk.htm

Most studies in favour of milk usually have a money trail leading back to those who will benefit from the study promoting milk.

Over 70% of the human population is lactose intolerant. Most animals are lactose intolerant. Our bodies have only tolerated/adapted to milk due to the continued consumption through time. Doesn't mean it has done us any good.

And of course there's the animal welfare/rights side of it but I won't go into that.

senileturtle

terra_ferma wrote: »

OP I forgot to mention something, another option for you is tea, I'm not talking about a bag of pg tips, sugar and milk, but good quality chinese tea.
Some oolongs are very fruity, other are very floral, the flavour is very complex and satisfying, nothing like our tea. They are more expensive than ordinary tea, but much cheaper than smoothies and Coke.
I drink the oolong teas sold by Canton Tea Co. (ignore the prices, they supply Harrods, but I buy directly from one of their suppliers in China, a French men with an ugly website but fantastic tea). Let me know if you are interested and would like some pointers
The Mi Lan and Big Red Robe are my favourite. When I tasted Mi Lan the first time I thought it was fruit tea (Lichee), never tasted anything like that.
Lighter green or white tea is great in summer, warm or cold.
(all tea is rich in minerals).

Do they taste like Jasmine tea? As I can't stand that stuff.

terra_ferma

senileturtle wrote: »

Roast almond? Not heard of that one.



http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/12/13120.aspx

http://life.nationalpost.com/2014/01/23/drinking-milk-not-essential-for-humans-despite-belief-it-prevents-osteoporosis-nutritionist-says/

http://www.rense.com/general67/milk.htm

Most studies in favour of milk usually have a money trail leading back to those who will benefit from the study promoting milk.

Over 70% of the human population is lactose intolerant. Most animals are lactose intolerant. Our bodies have only tolerated/adapted to milk due to the continued consumption through time. Doesn't mean it has done us any good.

And of course there's the animal welfare/rights side of it but I won't go into that.

I think they only use roasted almonds.
I meant roasted as opposed to those found in other brands, e.g. Sainsbury's tastes very different.

There seems to be contradictory information out there about how good milk is for your bones. But I've stopped worrying about hearing conflicting advice, because there's too much out there (the joy of the internet is that you get information overload, every minor study/research/article/opinion/BS out there is easily available and you could spend your life reading about different schools of thought on any topic...). I just do what works for me, through trial and error.

However I have to say I still have not seen any scientific evidence (by that I mean a proper scientific study as opposed to a website or book making claims) that milk causes osteoporosis or that it's toxic in any way. Not saying that there isn't, just that I've not seen it.
Doesn't look like I'm allergic to dairy products so will go back to including them in my diet.

senileturtle

The scientific studies are mentioned in the links I gave you.

There's only conflicting information because the dairy lobby has a lot to gain from promoting milk consumption obviously.

http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/2012/autumn2012/got-truth-the-dairy-industrys-junk-science

terra_ferma

senileturtle wrote: »

The scientific studies are mentioned in the links I gave you.

There's only conflicting information because the dairy lobby has a lot to gain from promoting milk consumption obviously.

http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/2012/autumn2012/got-truth-the-dairy-industrys-junk-science

the links you gave are not to authoritative sources, or actual scientific studies showing that milk is toxic, they are blogs/interviews/book synopsis with one individual's opinion and very few references scattered around, 4 links mentioning the same Nurses Health Harward study are not the same as having 4 different sources.
However even if sources are limited to a few studies and stretched a bit, it's still useful to hear alternative views, and I would sum up the message I got out of it using words from one of the articles:

“Nobody is saying that these foods are toxic,” Jenkins said. “What we’re saying is, is it essential that we should be focusing on them so much?”