Are we even trying the right trade for installing a sump pump?

JustAnotherSaver

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past & has even worked with that studded plastic membrane on the walls as he converted a basement, but we've decided against this for our living room & we're just going to patch in.

So just waiting on him arranging a time & date to go take a look & then hopefully that'll be the pump & door jobs ticked off the list with only the electrics & plastering left to do.

JustAnotherSaver

Stooby2 wrote: »

The OP has clearly followed the advice given and reached a dead end and is now asking for any more ideas.

Thanks for coming to the table with open eyes. It makes a refreshing change. Shame not all can see the full picture.

plumb1 wrote: »

IMO he's not taken the advice given,

I guess not....

MSE members: for Christs sake go get a builder.
JAS: goes & gets a builder, & another, & another, & another. ALL are either timewasters, too busy or wont touch the job.
Builder #4: maybe you should try a plumber?
JAS: Hey MSE'ers, i've done what you guys have advised & pursued a builder but i'm hitting a brick wall & they're clueless. They suggest a plumber. Might this be correct or is that builder even more clueless than the others? Please take note of the lack of attitude in my question & how i'm just seeking confirmation, a bit of guidance, nothing more, nothing less.

(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)

muckybutt

What type of sump pump do you have ? pic would be good ?

There's nothing to them in all honesty, a pump that can handle solids and a float switch that's basically it. I am surprised the electrician couldn't deal with it to be honest.

Fair enough there are many different types and models but they are all the same, I have changed a few in my career as a sparky including the plumbing.

JohnB47

I know this thread is all about sump pumps but have you really really considered my (and possiby others) suggestion to find a way to let this water soak away naturally from underneath your property? After all, if your house wasn't there, it's unlikely that the water would form a pond - it would simply disperse.

If I were you, I would be thinking of digging down against an outside wall, down to the foundations. Then think about removing a few bricks and inserting a lintel over. Possibly just removing one brick (one on the outer and one on the inner if cavity walled) and see if the water starts to drain away naturally over the foundations. If it does I would think about providing a large soakaway area for the water to disperse gradually, dig out some of that soil under the room and fill it with chippings. You could think later about capping that off with an impervious barrier and concrete. Obviously this would be a biggish digging project but fairly low tech.

Isn't this at least worth thinking about, as a more elegant cost and worry free long term solution?

JustAnotherSaver

muckybutt wrote: »

What type of sump pump do you have ? pic would be good ?

That's the whole point we raised with the joker of a builder we got (the first guy) - we don't actually know. We don't know the brand, we don't know the sort of quality it is, we don't know how old it is. Therefore because of this we want in a brand new pump - something with a bit of quality, so we know what make it is, how old it is, how good it's 'supposed' to be etc.

But as for photo, these are the ones i've got:

I have changed a few in my career as a sparky including the plumbing.

Want the job?
There may well be nothing to them & from the YouTube videos we've seen, it appears fairly straight forward, but then when you know full well what you're doing & when something goes wrong what to do then everything is easy. When you're not sure of yourself then it's not so easy. My preference is to pay someone who knows what they're doing.

JohnB47 wrote: »

I know this thread is all about sump pumps but have you really really considered my (and possiby others) suggestion to find a way to let this water soak away naturally from underneath your property?

Yes we have actually.

For the benefit of some others - i repeat - yes, we have considered that suggestion.

I was speaking to a builder about it against it based on a few factors. What the builder said, what the council said. We want to move in as this is dragging on now so we want it sorted. We've been told by a drainage engineer that this area suffers from many natural occurring springs & we shouldn't look at interfering with this. I wonder if this is why the crawlspace is 1mtr deep. I took this as 'the norm' but speaking to others they seemed a bit surprised that the depth was 1mtr as they didn't expect it to be so deep. As well as the well respected builder i spoke to, the joker of a builder also said he'd done work in the area before & that a sump pump is the best option all round.

So aye, it was considered. We also don't have the additional funds required either so we had to knock it on the head.

Mr_Ted

OK lets get down to some simple facts on the sump pump, believe them or not, and without diversifying into skirting and plastering issue, in respect of what you have said, is installed, and is shown in the photo’s!
Whether you take any notice, just because you are indecisive or don’t like what has been stated to you, is up to you but it doesn’t detract from the facts!

The existing installation

Firstly there is no indication of the proximity for access, and the type of access to the void and pump!
From what we can see on the photo and what you have said it would appear that the installation has been carried out as a permanent installation, and no consideration has been given to maintenance or failure.

The sump seems to have been hacked out, which is allowing excessive ingress of silt, which appears to be fine silt, not lumpy, and will allow an excess to build up at the bottom of the sump, although most sump pumps WILL handle and remove a degree of silty materials, but it wont remove a build up that will obstruct the grill that will be around the bottom of the pump, and that build up over time will solidify.
The sump is also not deep enough, as the pump should be totally immersed within the sump to enable as much water as possible to be removed from the sump and void by the activation of the float switch!

The pipe connected to the pump looks fairly rigid, can’t determine size, and is a push on connection sealed by some form of jubilee clip (difficult to see), and there does not seem to be much excess to allow for moving the pump for maintenance or removal.

The electric cable, which will be a pre-fitted cable with waterproof connections, and these usually come with a minimum of 3mtrs of cable.
The cable does not seem to have enough free excess length of cable in the way it is fitted to enable sufficient movement away from the sump to enable removal or maintenance.
It would also appear from what has been said that the cable does not have a local isolator, which is required by regulation, and the source supply cannot be found, (even if it hasn’t been investigated sufficiently)?
Due to the pre-fitted cable to the pump, there MUST be a jointed connection SOMEWHERE within the bounds of the length of pre-fitted cable!

The pump itself APPEARS to be a standard submersible pump of medium construction, with a free floating float switch, but without actual detail of make and model it is NOT possible to state if it is man enough for the job.

To maintain this existing installation IS possible, however that will mean close proximity to do what is necessary by just lifting the pump from the sump in a cold damp confined environment, not many will do that!

To amend, maintain or replace

Firstly direct access from above to avoid a confined space is required, directly above or in very close proximity to the installation, by way of a hatch in the floor of sufficient size for manual access and lifting of the pump, wiring and pipework!

It would be advisable to deepen the sump so that the pump is totally immersed within the confines of the sump and large enough to allow free movement of the float switch, and at the base adapted so that pump is sat on and raised (sat on a block) above a level that silt may form over a period between necessary maintenance!
Ideally the sump should be lined and a raised rim built up with gaps to allow a free flow of the water but with a minimum ingress of silt, i.e. to keep the silt out of the sump as much as possible!

The pipe should have a free loop of flexible pipe to enable easy movement in any direction and and to allow lifting the pump out of the sump whilst still connected, and preferably have a union connection, which will be less fiddly that a jubilee clip, which can be disconnected when the pump is out of situ and lifted to a suitable level for proper access to the connections!
The flexible section of pipe to the pump should be of a minimum length just to cater for lifting the pump and be allowed to freely rest within the void, it’s only needed to allow free and sufficient movement when the pump needs to be lifted!

The cable should have a fused local isolator, either water resistant hard wired, but preferably a water resistant plug fitment for disconnection purposes just under the floor level, or a standard local isolator or plug and socket just above floor level within reachable distance from the pump!
The end of the pre-fitted cable should be connected to this local isolator, without it being shortened, to allow for free movement when required for the pump to be removed from the sump for any reason!
The loose length of cable from isolator to pump should be coiled and stowed within the void safely away from the sump itself, it’s only needed to allow free and sufficient movement when the pump needs to be lifted!

WHAT pump you use needs to be determined by the volume of water and regularity that the water runs into the void, and it is quite possible that the existing one IS perfectly suitable, particularly as in the photo’s it is clearly doing the job that is required of it, even though it may not be perfect in its installation or accessibility!

There is NO NEED for elaborate controls systems, the basic system as you already have WILL do the job automatically and continue to do the job with CORRECT and PROPER maintenance and monitoring!

WHAT you do, or WHAT notice you take of this, or HOW much you want to dither about is entirely up to you!!!

What you DO need to do though is to respect the advice given on here, FREELY, although it might require sifting to sort out whose actually IS knowledgeable and pertinent too and of the subject matter, give sufficient info for the issue at hand without muddying the issue with other issues that may be associated, as that’s what creating a different thread is for, because basically if you get dithery and ARSY with the people who ARE knowledgeable you will find you will get NO responses of consequence that will help YOU!!!

Ruski

I tink this is exactly the respose required - a very long winded and detailed version of everything that has been said before!

Well done Mr Ted to taking the time and effort.... let's hope it's appreciated.

Beers all around I think

Russ

cyclonebri1

securityman wrote: »

If your having trouble getting a domestic plumber to change the pump, try a commercial plumber.
You could use a small BMS (building management system) control panel to monitor the fault signal from the pump. For this you could use a controls company (BMS)
I fit BMS controls on commercial sites and connect to sump pumps on some sites. But other trades would fit the pump, another sparky would do the power and we do the control.
What you need is multi trades to complete your job if your having trouble finding one trade to do the lot.

I agree, if you remember JASaver I told you way back you need a guy that is familiar with industrial plumbing, ie, water works.

I can't find that guy for you, but I can say that by now you should enough savvy on this subject to get it sorted without being ripped orrrrrf.;)

plumb1_2

Forget builders, any good experienced plumber should be able to do this job.

Remove old pump, dig the ground deeper, and install a plastic CWS tank (2nd hand off fleabay)
Put a few bricks in the bottom of the tank so the pump and sit on them, so any slit wont get sucked up.

Pipe up the pump with solvent weld waste pipe, install a disconnecting union ( Terrain plastics) to allow removal of pump (maintenance )

Fused isolator, non switched.

Listen to what Mr Ted says!!!!!!!!

The job is a very easy job to do, biggest problem is getting the tank under the floor.

JustAnotherSaver

Just in case anyone has missed it, i posted this one 3 days ago...

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past

Just in case anyone missed it again, i'll repeat ...

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past

And just in case it's still not getting through i'll highlight...

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past

And just in case that's too plain, let me put it in pretty colours....

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past

Still not getting it? Let me elaborate on that last bit....

JustAnotherSaver wrote: »

Thanks for your post.

Just to update - i've got a chap who's going to look at the job & says he can do the lot, minus the electrics. He said he's done these in the past .......... that means he has experience in this area

Still not getting it? Then i'm afraid i give up!!

Ruski wrote: »

I tink this is exactly the respose required - a very long winded and detailed version of everything that has been said before!

Well done Mr Ted to taking the time and effort.... let's hope it's appreciated.

Beers all around I think

Russ

Seriously, any further & i think you'll be poking out of Mr Ted's mouth!! Seriously cringeworthy post there & didn't help either positively or negatively to this thread whatsoever. You don't have a thing for Mr Ted do you? Just reading that post, i'm not so sure.

Mr_Ted wrote: »

without diversifying into skirting and plastering issue,

Well i do apologise for discussing the various jobs i'm having to get done.
Hang on, it's my thread & i can discuss whatever the hell i like, so nope, i don't apologise.



HOWEVER, after all of that....

Thank you Mr Ted for your detailed response. Now we're having portions of helpful responses without BS attitude i'll reply...

The pipe connected to the pump looks fairly rigid, can’t determine size, and is a push on connection sealed by some form of jubilee clip (difficult to see), and there does not seem to be much excess to allow for moving the pump for maintenance or removal.

Agreed. Without chopping the pipe & having a measure i'd have to take an educated guess based on pipe work i have to deal with daily at work & say that it's probably about a 50mm pipe +/- 10mm perhaps.

The cable does not seem to have enough free excess length of cable in the way it is fitted to enable sufficient movement away from the sump to enable removal or maintenance.

Whether it meets regs or not i do not know but there is actually a good amount of slack to be fair.
It's looped up & pegged to the joists. It runs to a control box & then back across the flooring. It's only that it's done in a loop & pegged to the joist that it looks like there's no slack.

t would also appear from what has been said that the cable does not have a local isolator, which is required by regulation, and the source supply cannot be found, (even if it hasn’t been investigated sufficiently)?

Agreed. Had a sparky down there who traced it & it's just wired to a control box & that's yer lot.

What you DO need to do though is to respect the advice given on here, FREELY, although it might require sifting to sort out whose actually IS knowledgeable and pertinent too and of the subject matter, give sufficient info for the issue at hand without muddying the issue with other issues that may be associated, as that’s what creating a different thread is for, because basically if you get dithery and ARSY with the people who ARE knowledgeable you will find you will get NO responses of consequence that will help YOU!!!

For the record i appreciate your response. It had dropped your arsey tone from earlier or at least toned it down. Also, i will be printing off what you've said & running it by the person tasked with the job. Not to check whether you're telling the truth or not, but to make sure they do it as you have laid out as 1) you appear to know what you're talking about 2) what you say makes perfect sense to me 3) it ties in with the videos & articles i've read about installation of these things. In short what i'm saying is i don't want the guy to make a balls up of the job. I want it done properly & i'll be using what you've said to get it done properly.

Also if this chap turns out to be no good, then i'll sack off the builder approach & begin looking at plumbers.

What we had been looking for was someone to do the lot - sump pump renewal & pit improvement, plastering & door blocking up.

We've already made steps today to get these jobs broken down - get 3 different people in if necessary. We've got someone coming out for the door & walls in a fortnight so we can concentrate on getting someone to solely focus on the sump pump & pit.

Again, thank you for your [last] post.