Leaving HL without transfer charges

Freecall

grey_gym_sock wrote: »

well, there is ... the cap is £4000 (on a £2m holding).

Well that's good news then.

Had me worried for a bit.

:rotfl:

SnowMan

jamesd wrote: »

SnowMan, thanks! Is there some sort of case reference that might be included in anyone who contacts them about HL? It'd be really nice to hand them a convenient package of a pattern of adverse behaviour towards consumers. That's the sort of demonstration of an industry-wide issue that may get them a good deal more involved in the general protection aspect to tackle the wider problem.

No case reference but I contacted them via their unfair contract terms on-line reporting form. There is no case reference as such. As you know they can't normally tell you what action they subsequently take.

It is clear to me that there is a big sea change going on with the formation of the Financial Conduct Authority. The FCA are not just saying they are listening to individuals who want to raise issues they seem to be actually doing it.

SnowMan

Does anyone have a copy of the HL terms and conditions that applied before January 2013?

I was wondering whether the regulatory reason that Hargreaves Lansdown are trying to use to increase charges without allowing free exit (albeit the OFT guidance makes it clear there is not a valid reason route to fairness on a price increase) was itself only introduced in January 2013.

If so that change itself was introduced around January 2013 without allowing customers the opportunity of a free exit.

So for customers who joined HL before around January 2013 the current change is effectively a unilateral change to terms and conditions made without allowing a customer a free exit (via a two step change).

If this regulatory reason wasn't in their pre January 2013 terms and conditions then well worth mentioning this in any complaint taken to the FOS.

Just a thought but this line of argument relies on the regulatory reason not being in the pre January 2013 terms. Does anyone know?

I mentioned my earlier concerns at the time in this post in January 2013.

masonic

SnowMan wrote: »

Does anyone have a copy of the HL terms and conditions that applied before January 2013?

I have a pdf of the T&Cs obtained from the website in January 2010. Regarding changes to the T&Cs, they state:

5. RIGHT TO AMEND. We reserve the right to amend these terms and will give you notice in good time before making material changes.
* Incidental changes will be notified via an update to the Terms & Conditions on the Hargreaves Lansdown Website and in printed form via the Investment Times at the time the changes are made.
* Material changes will be notified to you at least 30 days in advance of the change taking place.

That is all they state. They do not go on to list any reasons they would be entitled to make a change and do not mention the ability to end the contract penalty free (...but why would they since there were no charges associated with leaving at that time anyway).

It does rather look as though their get out clause "...to meet regulatory requirements or industry guidance or best practice..." was put in there deliberately in January 2013 in order to circumvent the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 for a change already being planned at that time.

jamesd

The current document on the site, General-T-and-Cs-of-Business-12.10.pdf contains this text:

"If we make any change for a reason not set out above which results in extra costs to you, you will be entitled to end your contract with us without charge."

Of course they include a long list of possible reasons:

"We will only amend these terms for a good reason, including:
• to reflect changes in the costs and charges that we incur or expect to incur in providing our services to you, and/or to take into account changes in the rates of inflation, taxes or interest or other market rates or indices
• to reflect current or future changes in law, Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) regulation, or decisions of the Financial Ombudsman Service
• to meet regulatory requirements or industry guidance or best practice
• to make these terms easier to understand or fairer to you, or to correct mistakes
• to reflect changes in market practice or conditions
• to reflect the way that our services are used and ensure that the costs of those services are allocated fairly among our clients
• to provide for the introduction of new systems or services and changes in technology or products
• to simplify or harmonise the services we offer and/or the charges we apply
• to ensure that we can continue to offer a competitive and sustainable service
• to enable us to provide our clients with a wide choice of investments to meet their needs."

It's interesting that below, not above, that text they have this:

"We may amend or remove the levels of fund discount at any time."

which is not above so they may think it's not included. But of course the prices charged for a service are a key part of the contract and clearly do have to be included. However, above the exit bit, they have "We can amend these terms, including our fees and charges" and this does include fees and charges.

SnowMan

masonic wrote: »

I have a pdf of the T&Cs obtained from the website in January 2010. Regarding changes to the T&Cs, they state:


It does rather look as though their get out clause "...to meet regulatory requirements or industry guidance or best practice..." was put in there deliberately in January 2013 in order to circumvent the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 for a change already being planned at that time.

Many thanks :beer:

I kept an electronic copy of the changes to terms and conditions in January 2013 which was in the form of a mark up type of pdf file showing in blue, things that were added with notes to show what was deleted. That seems to show that all the changes to add in reasons (as detailed in jamesd post) were added then, although you can't just see the original pdf document to absolutely confirm that.

So this does seem to be a two step unilateral variation to terms and conditions (noting as you say that the January 2013 change and current increase in charges are very close together).

So if an investor with HL who invested before January 2013 is affected by an increase in charges now, then my upheld FOS case could well be a precedent to show that exit fees should be waived.

Please feel free to reference my case in any referral to the FOS. The FOS adjudicator decision was made on 14th September 2012, an opinion that Hargreaves Lansdown accepted without it going to the Ombudsman.

SnowMan

gterr wrote: »

Malfesto has contacted me to pass on the following links concerning his previous successful claim to the FOS regarding transfer charges. Malfesto is confident that the FOS would uphold a similar complaint should HL fail to waive transfer charges in this case.


http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...php?p=63925897

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...php?p=63978327

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...php?p=64384620

Malfesto helped me through some detailed PMs when I was formulating my Youinvest FOS referral.

So just want to publicly say thanks to Malfesto for all his help for me and to others :T:beer:

masonic

SnowMan wrote: »

So this does seem to be a two step unilateral variation to terms and conditions (noting as you say that the January 2013 change and current increase in charges are very close together).

Earlier today I sent off a message to HL asking them if they would waive the charges and using the two step variation to the T&Cs as my argument as to why I thought the charges were unfair. They are obviously on the ball today as I've already had a response. I wasn't expecting them to agree just like that, but they did make one small concession...

...
In recognition of the fact that some of our clients may wish to leave us as a result of these changes, we are retaining our existing transfer out charges until 2 June 2014, to allow clients who wish to leave time to identify a new provider and transfer out under the current terms. However, we will not be waiving any transfer fees.

lejog2003

My management fees for holding a 3 tracker funds in a SIPP that pay HL no commission are rising from £6 a month to £110 a month. To think that people moaned about a £2 platform fee! I've contacted HL about waiving exit charges (£75 for a SIPP) and have received the following reply.

We are sorry to hear that you are considering transferring away from Hargreaves Lansdown. However, we are not required to permit transfers out without charge. Our Terms & Conditions allow us to vary our terms to reflect current or future changes in law, Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) rules or regulations, without providing the option of a free transfer. Our recent changes are the result of a regulatory initiative by the FCA and as such they do not require us to permit free transfers out.

1) Does anyone remember how or if they were notified of the 2013 changes to ts and cs? I certainly haven't had a paper copy sent to me.

2) Does the scale of the increase (a mere 1800%), have any legal significance?

3) If there is any delay in transfer of the SIPP, I will end up paying HL £110 fees on 1st March. Any thoughts on tackling HL to ensure that the old fees are charged until transfer is complete?

masonic

lejog2003 wrote: »

1) Does anyone remember how or if they were notified of the 2013 changes to ts and cs? I certainly haven't had a paper copy sent to me.

Yes, I can remember being notified. There was an article in their Investment Times magazine and it was mentioned in the covering letter. Perhaps if you opted out of their junk mail you wouldn't have received it though. I thought they had sent out a secure message, but checking back through my inbox it looks as though they didn't.

2) Does the scale of the increase (a mere 1800%), have any legal significance?

Any increase at all should be significant enough to trigger The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

3) If there is any delay in transfer of the SIPP, I will end up paying HL £110 fees on 1st March. Any thoughts on tackling HL to ensure that the old fees are charged until transfer is complete?

As written in my post above, HL have delayed implementing the new charges until 2nd June, so you should be ok. - Edit: thought you were referring to the new account closure/cash transfer fees, not the platform fees, which are not being delayed.