MSE News: Compare The Market reviews security following passwords probe

InsideInsurance

We seem to have gone way off the course of talking about aggregators to trying to bash Experian.

Now I am not the greatest fan of CRAs but lets be realistic, in the UK we dont have any form of ID number and therefore there is no singular Natural Primary Key and nor is there a definitive list of all people. There isnt even a Composite Key as legitimately data changes over time and names can be abbreviated or not etc so you will end up having fuzzy logic matching to try and decide if, when new data is received, is this information for one of the existing people in the data warehouse as 90% of the information matches or is this actually a new person who just happens to have exceptionally similar information?

Not every wrong date of birth is going to be a fraud attempt, people miss key, you yourself, a friend helping you or the member of staff. Likewise not everyone's handwriting is perfect and again things can be misread.

CRAs do not claim to be a 100% record, other lenders/ vendors/ service providers are aware of this hence why some dont bother even using them, some only use part of the services and others use them more fully. As the Experian Rep has said, they provide "scores", they dont give black and white answers, yes/ no its the customer, yes/no lend to them, they just give a score and the service provider makes the choice.

CRAs do not claim to police the data either, they are a store not a validator. As per the DPA, if you inform them data is wrong with evidence then they must correct it. Likewise, given your monika, if you've been the victim of identity fraud you also have CIFAS who will also note on your files both with themselves and the CRAs

VictimOfImpersonation

InsideInsurance wrote: »

We seem to have gone way off the course of talking about aggregators to trying to bash Experian.

Now I am not the greatest fan of CRAs but lets be realistic, in the UK we dont have any form of ID number and therefore there is no singular Natural Primary Key and nor is there a definitive list of all people. There isnt even a Composite Key as legitimately data changes over time and names can be abbreviated or not etc so you will end up having fuzzy logic matching to try and decide if, when new data is received, is this information for one of the existing people in the data warehouse as 90% of the information matches or is this actually a new person who just happens to have exceptionally similar information?

Not every wrong date of birth is going to be a fraud attempt, people miss key, you yourself, a friend helping you or the member of staff. Likewise not everyone's handwriting is perfect and again things can be misread.

CRAs do not claim to be a 100% record, other lenders/ vendors/ service providers are aware of this hence why some dont bother even using them, some only use part of the services and others use them more fully. As the Experian Rep has said, they provide "scores", they dont give black and white answers, yes/ no its the customer, yes/no lend to them, they just give a score and the service provider makes the choice.

CRAs do not claim to police the data either, they are a store not a validator. As per the DPA, if you inform them data is wrong with evidence then they must correct it. Likewise, given your monika, if you've been the victim of identity fraud you also have CIFAS who will also note on your files both with themselves and the CRAs

You see II, you are describing what CRAs have become, and we are not off topic because we are talking about security of our personal data and Aggregators are a seriously regular accessor of and provider of the data that ends up in our CRA records. Ask yourself why Experian Company Representative entered this thread so early.

CRAs are not supposed to be the repository of all data, true data alongside false data, typo or not. They have no right to store such garbage, and the idea of them being let loose with fuzzy logic is running and being given sharp objects to play with before they can even walk.

And you mention CIFAS as if it is another good thing. It isn't. It's nearly two weeks since I called the bank that issued the fraudulent card account and established that they had no idea what they had done. Nearly two weeks since they said they would register it with CIFAS. Nothing. And though I was registered on CIFAS previously, it just dropped off after 12 months and was no use whatsoever in protecting my identity against the next attack. Identity Fraud is Serious Organised Crime. Those behind it are far more seriously organised than CRAs banks, aggregators or CIFAS. But there's lots that don't care, either because they haven't a clue or because they don't want to handle any general alarm amongst their markets.

InsideInsurance

Aggregators simply access scores, not data. They simply deposit that either an ID check or query for the purposes of insurance has been made. Lets me a little realistic about these things.

They have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information. You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right. It is never going to be realistic to have the CRAs validate every single piece of information received and for the 99.9% we are happy that we can do a loan request online and get a decision in seconds which is enabled by the credit reference agencies.

Fuzzy logic is here to stay until the day we get our barcodes/ microchips at birth and a global directory of people is created. At that point, your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison to what can be done with a definitive global db.

Banks, insurers, CIFAS, FOS, CRAs etc all operate much slower than the majority of consumers would like. 2 weeks, especially over xmas, is unlikely to be a realistic timescale for resolution

VictimOfImpersonation

InsideInsurance wrote: »

Aggregators simply access scores, not data. They simply deposit that either an ID check or query for the purposes of insurance has been made. Lets me a little realistic about these things.

They have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information. You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right. It is never going to be realistic to have the CRAs validate every single piece of information received and for the 99.9% we are happy that we can do a loan request online and get a decision in seconds which is enabled by the credit reference agencies.

Fuzzy logic is here to stay until the day we get our barcodes/ microchips at birth and a global directory of people is created. At that point, your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison to what can be done with a definitive global db.

Banks, insurers, CIFAS, FOS, CRAs etc all operate much slower than the majority of consumers would like. 2 weeks, especially over xmas, is unlikely to be a realistic timescale for resolution

Well if they take two weeks to set a CIFAS registration and it takes seconds to get another credit agreement online which will for 2 weeks not be blocked by CIFAS, I think I think they may be well behind the curve, II. So might you - the global db you speak of already exists for the western world and large parts of the rest of it within intelligence agency networks. But the point is, although corporates have no right to it they are successfully attempting to parallel it by cosying up to government agencies.

I don't mind my government holding a certain amount of data, but corporates? I go back to my point about letting the wrong people loose with sharp objects.

As I have said before, I don't need an instant online credit decision and I fail to see any significant call for it. Personal credit shouldn't be that easy and because it has been in the UK for too long, we have one of the largest national average levels of personal indebtedness in the world.

That is a bad thing to continue with and anything facilitating it is a bad thing.

They [CRAs, Aggregators whoever ('Data Controllers' per the DPA)] have the right to store what data is presented to them under the terms they have with those entitled to deposit information.

Wrong. They have no right to obtain and retain and/or process that data if they a contravening DPA e.g. by obtaining the data recklessly.

You have the right to have corrections made and must exercise that right.

I also have the additional right of freedom to publish what I think should be published here in the much broader interest for as long as MSE let me.

your concerns of local dbs of information will pale in comparison...

The question of my right to force deletion of a single record pales into insignificance compared to our right as the public to force CRAs to tidy up their unlawful acts across the piste.

dacouch

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64198408#Comment_64198408

InsideInsurance

The question of my right to force deletion of a single record

There is no right to delete records, only correct errors - yet at least though the EU are discussing introducing the rights to demand deletion

I also have the additional right of freedom to publish what I think should be published here in the much broader interest for as long as MSE let me.

As other people have the right to to publish what they think of what you are saying.

Well if they take two weeks to set a CIFAS registration and it takes seconds to get another credit agreement online which will for 2 weeks not be blocked by CIFAS, I think I think they may be well behind the curve, II. So might you - the global db you speak of already exists for the western world and large parts of the rest of it within intelligence agency networks. But the point is, although corporates have no right to it they are successfully attempting to parallel it by cosying up to government agencies.

As already said, the processes are always too slow but until anyone makes millions from it then it'll never be that well systemised or staffed. Realistically only the likes of CRAs are going to be able to make a decent enough profit from investing large sums into counter fraud technology to actually make a business case stack up -v- other options for the capital investment.

To the governmental databases, think you need an element of realism in there about what they have in any form of usable systems. Just look at the USA government and its ESTA process, I did accidently put details in wrong (date of birth in this case) and it all went through instantly despite dob given and dob on the british passport not matching and given british is an acquired nationality and birth nationality is a non-friendly nation to the US, you'd have thought that these amazing shared databases they have would have thrown up concerns.

Corporate systems are probably better, more complete, certainly more sophisticated and more usable. For your concerns, then thankfully natural competition between corporates will limit the amount of data sharing and thus completeness of the picture. Our promiscuity as customers is the only thing that is distributing our data further than it traditionally was

VictimOfImpersonation

I am beginning to think your thinking is tainted by the sordid world from which you gain a living, II.

How can you possibly assert that I have no right to make the CRA delete the completely fraudulent record from my file?

You are clearly no lawyer.

Customers have been made promiscuous both by the ease of credit, and by the sordid morals of the corporates.

Corporates have both encouraged customers to break covenants of old which demonstrated loyalty and themselves have reneged on promises (especially insurance and investment related promises) to such a degree old brands were dumped and any suggested brand loyalty is now pure hype not based on any real standard but on some jingle.

And you talk of natural competition when there is none. It is all corrupted by massive cartels controlled by remarkably few individuals in both banking and insurance.

Congratulations on being an unwitting part of it who has been liberally equipped I see to use all the necessary soundbites to make it smell nicer, even if the looks behind the scenes continue to be a real giveaway.

The news is - it's no good. The news was finally out 5 years ago but remarkably the sheeple still haven't cottoned have they?

InsideInsurance

I have never claimed to be a lawyer.

Please show me any piece of legislation that states you have the right to demand any organisation deletes data. There is a proposal for this but at present the law states you can only demand that information is correct/ accurate and deletion is not necessarily the only way that this can be achieved.

Customers have been made promiscuous both by the ease of credit

How is ease of credit relevant to people choosing to shop around for their insurance and switching to save less than £1?

Corporates have both encouraged customers to break covenants of old which demonstrated loyalty and themselves have reneged on promises (especially insurance and investment related promises) to such a degree old brands were dumped and any suggested brand loyalty is now pure hype not based on any real standard but on some jingle.

Which promises have insurers wholesale reneged on?

It is all corrupted by massive cartels controlled by remarkably few individuals in both banking and insurance

Who are these individuals in the insurance industry?

VictimOfImpersonation

OK II, I give up. Clearly you have all the answers you need to justify your own take on it.

You haven't yet become aware of the tiny groups that control some of the world's largest financial services companies ? You think they are part of a "free" market? Yes there is just enough free market type activity to fool most people but if you take a long hard look at who is behind some of the reinsurers it is quite fascinating how quickly you reach the point at the top of the pyramid

Same with banking of course but that became much more transparent after Lehman.

InsideInsurance

VictimOfImpersonation wrote: »

You haven't yet become aware of the tiny groups that control some of the world's largest financial services companies ? You think they are part of a "free" market? Yes there is just enough free market type activity to fool most people but if you take a long hard look at who is behind some of the reinsurers it is quite fascinating how quickly you reach the point at the top of the pyramid

It always amazes me when you challenge someone about these alleged all powerful cabals or people that own everything that they can never actually name any of them themselves but instead just try and be enigmatic or just claim its funny that the person challenging them doesnt actually know it already.

Why are you bring reinsurance into the matter? Are you implying reinsurers exert pressure on those who are placing business with them? How about those who dont purchase reinsurance? Or those where they cede it to an external and then its ceded back to the original insurer/ reinsurer?