Should Scotland be an independent country?

gm_xone

DaveTheMus wrote: »

How can it be independence if we are part of the EU, which by it's nature passes laws, rules and regulation arbitrarily?

You're making a mistake in how you think about this though.......you define England and the Union itself by the political class alone and not the people...

Let's for a moment apply this this way of thinking to the political class that have come from Scotland over the last few parliaments.....Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Danny Alexander, Eric Joyce, Dennis MacShane, Jim Devine and lets not forget Alastair Campbell....

Are you honestly telling me that if Scotland gained 'independence' serving parasites like this would vanish?

I said earlier in this thread that because I do not know all the facts - pros and cons - about the EU (the UK Govt. aren't exactly forthcoming with such information), then I can't make an informed decision whether being in the EU is a good thing or not. With independence, Scots would get the opportunity to decide for themselves about EU membership (and everything else too) - ie. it wouldn't be decided by a government we have almost no control over.

I didn't define England, or its people. I'm in favour of self-determination for all.
If the people of Wales want independence, then they already have, in theory at least, a possible route to a referendum of their own.
Northern Ireland has it's own Assembly, and the people there can decide for themselves if they wish to remain part of the UK or as a reunited Ireland.
If the people of England want a government of their own (or independence), then only they can vote for that.

Nothing about Union or Westminster will change - it'll always remain broken, and seek to serve the same people it does now (and they'll do their utmost to keep it that way) - unless someone else makes the effort. Scotland voting for independence might just be the inspiration, the catalyst for a better, fairer system of government to emerge in the rUK.

As to the politicians you list; personally I wouldn't vote for any of them (and never have), but it would be up to the people of Scotland as a whole to decide if they wanted to (though I doubt that many would). In any case, they are all pro-UK, so little chance of any of them standing for election in a "too wee, too poor, too stupid country".
Of course, an independent Scottish Parliament shouldn't be only for Scots (either those listed above, or others). As is the case now, there are MSPs in Holyrood who were born outwith Scotland. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't continue after independence, nor why it wouldn't be warmly welcomed.

Celyn

sharnad wrote: »

The few votes that the yes scottish voters won by shows how deprecate the yes team are, having to beg people to go on a online poll to try and drum up support. If the no voters had been as worried they could have rallied the troops. The higher amount of people voting no on proper polls has worried the yes camp and they are trying to get people on here to away opinion

"deprecate"? :huh:

DaveTheMus

gm_xone wrote: »

I said earlier in this thread that because I do not know all the facts - pros and cons - about the EU (the UK Govt. aren't exactly forthcoming with such information), then I can't make an informed decision whether being in the EU is a good thing or not. With independence, Scots would get the opportunity to decide for themselves about EU membership (and everything else too) - ie. it wouldn't be decided by a government we have almost no control over.

I didn't define England, or its people. I'm in favour of self-determination for all.
If the people of Wales want independence, then they already have, in theory at least, a possible route to a referendum of their own.
Northern Ireland has it's own Assembly, and the people there can decide for themselves if they wish to remain part of the UK or as a reunited Ireland.
If the people of England want a government of their own (or independence), then only they can vote for that.

Nothing about Union or Westminster will change - it'll always remain broken, and seek to serve the same people it does now (and they'll do their utmost to keep it that way) - unless someone else makes the effort. Scotland voting for independence might just be the inspiration, the catalyst for a better, fairer system of government to emerge in the rUK.

As to the politicians you list; personally I wouldn't vote for any of them (and never have), but it would be up to the people of Scotland as a whole to decide if they wanted to (though I doubt that many would). In any case, they are all pro-UK, so little chance of any of them standing for election in a "too wee, too poor, too stupid country".
Of course, an independent Scottish Parliament shouldn't be only for Scots (either those listed above, or others). As is the case now, there are MSPs in Holyrood who were born outwith Scotland. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't continue after independence, nor why it wouldn't be warmly welcomed.

Look...I'm not saying that independence would be an apocalypse for Scotland and under the right circumstances I would vote for it....However as it is framed just now, with what Salmond is saying about remaining in the EU and staying in NATO, then it's a NO from me.

gm_xone

DaveTheMus wrote: »

Look...I'm not saying that independence would be an apocalypse for Scotland and under the right circumstances I would vote for it....However as it is framed just now, with what Salmond is saying about remaining in the EU and staying in NATO, then it's a NO from me.

I completely respect your choice (though, obviously, I'm definitely a Yes), but I'm not sold on your reasoning. A No vote to independence means we'd remain in NATO, and (depending on events at a UK level) possibly still be in the EU too. Potentially the same outcome, then, without any of the advantages and opportunities that independence would bring.

Celyn

DaveTheMus wrote: »

^^^^^^

.......I think it's selfish of the people of Scotland to abandon the working-class of England, N.Ireland and Wales, just as selfish as some of the things you highlighted in your post.

Abandon? You might be over-estimating the influence of the 59 Scottish MPs out of the total of 650. There seems to be a widespread myth that Scottish independence will leave the remainder of the U.K. with some sort of permanent Tory majority, but that is simply not true.

My computer is horribly slow so I must cheat a bit by just posting links where the figures, facts and even pretty coloured graphics are given.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-wouldnt-mean-permanent-majority-tories

http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/2013/05/will-scotland-leave-england-to-generations-of-tory-rule/

There is no "selfishness" involved: you can look at the history of all general elections since 1945 to see just what influence Scotland has or does not have on the make-up of the House of Commons.

sharnad

Celyn wrote: »

"deprecate"? :huh:

Desperate. iPod predictive test

baldelectrician

Some websites that give information of the Scottish independence debate



http://www.newsnetscotland.com

http://www.wingsoverscotland.com

http://www.bellacaledonia.org.uk

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk

http://www.womenforindependence.org

http://www.YesScotland.net

http://www.labourforindy.com

http://www.reidfoundation.org

http://www.scottishcommonweal.org

http://www.nationalcollective.com

http://www.scotreferendum.com

http://www.derekbatemandotnet1.worldpress.com

http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk

Hope this helps

MothballsWallet

Yes: Then they can keep old Fish Face (Salmond) on their site of the border :rotfl:

gm_xone

baldelectrician wrote: »

http://www.derekbatemandotnet1.worldpress.com

Derek Bateman's blog has moved and can now be found at http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

His latest piece, a follow-up to this article, is looking very interesting - Breaking News - BBC threatens academic

antrobus

baldelectrician wrote: »

....It has been pointed out by the European Court that Scots have rights as EU citizens and there is no legal recourse to have these rights removed from Scots citizens against their will....

On a point of order. The European Court has said no such thing.