Should Scotland be an independent country?

wiogs

baldelectrician wrote: »

Together we have done many incredible things?
Trident weapons miles from Glasgow
Increased poverty
Food banks
Austerity (instead of trying policies that grow the economy, such as not doing quantitative easing to £300 billion and building houses ans infrastructure)
ATOS assessments
A benefits system where one size does not fit all- bedroom tax
MP- duck pond expenses etc
Going back to WWII etc- Canada and other Commonwealth countries came to UK aid- we would still be in the Commonwealth. Scotland can then decide to take our troops to war if it wanted, which brings me to my next 2 points
Afghanistan
Iraq

Remember Scotland would be in control- when we are independent we can decide to do things our way.
We can decide to stay or leave the EU - it will be up to the Scottish Parliament (will of the people and all that), not Westminster - which has the SE of England and London as it's priorities to the expense of the remainder of the UK

As far as the EU goes- we have no say over the EU at present, with the exception of begging the UK to put our point across, remember this is the same UK that saw Scottish fishing interests as 'expendable' to further other UK interests

This is the same UK that
Made dead peoples votes count - to turn a 51.8% YES vote in a referendum (1979) to a NO, 40% Rule
Hid a report that showed the true value of Scotland's oil in the 1970's, and continues to underestimate today McCrone Report and HERE
A former UK chancellor admits to hiding Scotland's resources and admits Westminster is 'scared stiff' of losing Scotland and the income from oil

So, Dave - Much as I respect your view I completely disagree with your opinion, but still support your right to have it and voice it

My closing link
If you have time have a look at this youtube video, it blows the myth about Scotland not being able to afford independence

Please excuse the naff intro graphics, the video is definitely worth a watch

I assume your comment regarding staying or leaving the EU means the voters could decide this once, and if, Scotland becomes a member?

DaveTheMus

zagubov wrote: »

Please enlighten me. I couldn't see what was selfish in that post.

an MP claiming expenses for duck ponds etc......
the Iraq war.........
Quantitative easing.........


3 things posted, IMO, that were very selfish as they served no-one except a select few people....

baldelectrician

DaveTheMus wrote: »

^^^^^^

The afghan war was a NATO conflict and last I checked, Salmond wanted to remain in NATO..........regarding Iraq, it was the politicians that took Britain to war, yes, even the ones with their constituencies in Scotland......an 'independent' Scotland could still be railroaded into a conflict the people don't want.........regarding your other points.......I think it's selfish of the people of Scotland to abandon the working-class of England, N.Ireland and Wales, just as selfish as some of the things you highlighted in your post.

The SNP ( in Westminster ) voted against the Afghanistan war in 2001.
As I said earlier- if Scotland was independent they could decide to commit troops - or not

zagubov

DaveTheMus wrote: »

^^^^^^

I think it's selfish of the people of Scotland to abandon the working-class of England, N.Ireland and Wales, just as selfish as some of the things you highlighted in your post.

Well how is Scotland repatriating its parliamentary powers abandoning the other countries? What good would it do to stay as it is? Unless a massive chunk of the UK votes for a federal party like the LibDems we're stuck with what we've got. What's the point of waiting for that to happen?

I hope that if Scotland emerges from the union the remaining parts of the UK have a good long think about where they're all going.

gm_xone

DaveTheMus wrote: »

It's not independence though is it....Salmond wants to join the EU so there goes 'self-determination'....the Union is not perfect, but, together we have done many incredible things for a small island, more recently when we stood alone, for a time, against the fascist German war-machine.....the same Germans Salmond wants to jump into bed with....

It is independence. What it's not, is isolation.

The Union isn't just imperfect, it's completely broken. Westminster - many of its MPs, and the House of Lords - is a place of corruption, self-serving careerists and millionaires who have absolutely no interest in the majority of the UK, the majority of the population, or in true and proper democracy.

gm_xone

DaveTheMus wrote: »

^^^^^^

...I think it's selfish of the people of Scotland to abandon the working-class of England, N.Ireland and Wales, just as selfish as some of the things you highlighted in your post.

As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, only in a very small number of occasions have the Scottish votes in UK General Elections made any difference at all to the outcome. So Scotland, being as it has so little influence in determining the "colour" of government, clearly wouldn't be abandoning anyone.

Anyway, is Scotland really somehow expected to save the rest of the UK from itself? (if the UK electorate outside of Scotland wants a specific outcome, then that's what they'll vote for and almost certainly get).

Or is it that you're suggesting, selfishly, that when Scotland votes for any party except the Tories, Scotland should still be subjected to Tory rule for no other reason than we're "all in it together and not supposedly abandoning certain sections of the population"? - even though our votes make almost no difference.

Independence - self-determination - will mean Scotland gets the government it votes for 100% of the time.

baldelectrician

wiogs wrote: »

I assume your comment regarding staying or leaving the EU means the voters could decide this once, and if, Scotland becomes a member?

The 'Scotland outside the EU and not getting in' is propaganda, and not fact- in my opinion

And it is all opinion

For example the Spanish prime minister has made hints about states leaving the EU, yet the Spanish Foreign minister says that Spain will not veto Scotland

It has been pointed out by the European Court that Scots have rights as EU citizens and there is no legal recourse to have these rights removed from Scots citizens against their will

The scenario is that the ONLY party that can ask of (and receive a formal opinion from ) the EU is a member state. As such David Cameron refuses to ask this question as 'he will not pre-negotiate' with Scotland

If Spain vetoes Scotland then the common fishery policy will be ripped up in Scottish territorial waters which means Spanish and French boats will be denied fishing rights in these waters
This won't happen as it will cripple the Spanish and French fishing industries, although there would be a boom in the Scottish industry.
Money talks- things will be worked out.

See the map below showing the area of Scottish territorial and economic waters.

DaveTheMus

gm_xone wrote: »

It is independence. What it's not, is isolation.

The Union isn't just imperfect, it's completely broken. Westminster - many of its MPs, and the House of Lords - is a place of corruption, self-serving careerists and millionaires who have absolutely no interest in the majority of the UK, the majority of the population, or in true and proper democracy.

How can it be independence if we are part of the EU, which by it's nature passes laws, rules and regulation arbitrarily?

You're making a mistake in how you think about this though.......you define England and the Union itself by the political class alone and not the people...

Let's for a moment apply this this way of thinking to the political class that have come from Scotland over the last few parliaments.....Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Danny Alexander, Eric Joyce, Dennis MacShane, Jim Devine and lets not forget Alastair Campbell....

Are you honestly telling me that if Scotland gained 'independence' serving parasites like this would vanish?

Celyn

Edwardia wrote: »

If Scotland wants independence and wants to be a member of the EU, they would have to join the Euro.

Secondly, why would the UK hand over a slice of the Bank of England?

Despite its name, it is the central bank of the United Kingdom and belongs to all.

Edwardia wrote: »

If the Scots vote for independence then I hope that will mean the end of Scottish MPs in the House of Commons.

Well of course there would no longer be M.P.s representing Scottish constituencies in the House of Commons. Why would there be?

Edwardia wrote: »

The polls are always asked of the Scots but not of the English, Welsh and N Irish. Wonder whether we'd say here have yer banks back, take yer whisky and running out oil and gas and bog off because really, I have to wonder who else besides the Scots actually cares.

Yet you do rather seem to care enough to post on the subject, even if "they can bog off" is not the most brilliant bit of political analysis ever written.

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

Go Scotland, go.


And take Liverpool with you