The First Minister's behaviour

shaz77_2

GlynD wrote: »

I think what is most shocking about this particular instance is the fact that it comes from within a section of the community which has suffered discrimination and complained about it very volubly. Why practice something your people have spent years getting rid of?

We are all human at the end of the day, one cannot condemn the Orange Institution or Gaelic Athletic Associations due to a few bad eggs in each in terms of members and followers.

shaz77_2

lazer wrote: »

I'd say an elementt of it is retribution - they done it do us, we will do it to them mentality - childish and stupid but its the way some people think.

Agreed....

GlynD

lazer wrote: »

I'd say an elementt of it is retribution - they done it do us, we will do it to them mentality - childish and stupid but its the way some people think.

Unfortunately that's true. It'll be generations until we're back to the way I remember it in the late 60's and early 70's before polarisation.

It's up to us to set the example however and be tolerant of all aspirations.

lazer

shaz77 wrote: »

We are all human at the end of the day, one cannot condemn the Orange Institution or Gaelic Athletic Associations due to a few bad eggs in each in terms of members and followers.

Exactly - members don't always act in the way the organisation would act.

GlynD

shaz77 wrote: »

We are all human at the end of the day, one cannot condemn the Orange Institution or Gaelic Athletic Associations due to a few bad eggs in each in terms of members and followers.

I'm not being pedantic or trying to start a row but I think the Orange Order needs a strong overhaul of its policies and the removal of all sectarian wording from its rule book and ceremonies. The GAA have already done so.

shaz77_2

GlynD wrote: »

I'm not being pedantic or trying to start a row but I think the Orange Order needs a strong overhaul of its policies and the removal of all sectarian wording from its rule book and ceremonies. The GAA have already done so.

My understanding is that is being worked on but needs to be voted on. In addition to this common sense is applied more often than not in relation to breaches of some rules.

The Orange does contain an overwhelming number of decent, law-abiding members and they also raise huge sums for charity etc and like the GAA they are an important part of NI culture.

GlynD

shaz77 wrote: »

My understanding is that is being worked on but needs to be voted on. In addition to this common sense is applied more often than not in relation to breaches of some rules.

The Orange does contain an overwhelming number of decent, law-abiding members and they also raise huge sums for charity etc and like the GAA they are an important part of NI culture.

I would absolutely agree with the second part of your statement. I have no doubt that most of them are good, honest, God fearing men and women. (speaking of the separate women's lodge).

I also understand the concept of the Willamite Cult and and the Glorious Revolution and know that the Orange Order is probably the only fraternity (and sorority) left in the world which keeps this once massive movement alive in modern society.

I further understand how difficult it will be for the Orange Order to remove such a fundamental part of its constitution which every brother is sworn to uphold. There could be a huge loss of membership. The very existence of the order could be threatened.

Change needs to happen however to make it less intimidating for some members of the community. I would certainly agree that the Orange Order, like the AOH and GAA are an important part of our shared culture and should be retained by all means. Do you not think though that threats of "civil disobedience" are out of step with the constitution? Isn't this still part of the oath?

'I declare that I will, as far as in my power lies; assist the magistrates and civil authorities of these kingdoms in the lawful execution of their official duties, when called upon.

I can't support the intransigence of the Belfast lodges either at Ardoyne. As Winston Churchill once said, "Jaw jaw is better than war war."

shaz77_2

It's more about modernising the language rather than changing the fundamentals. If you haven't already done so, watch 21st century Orangeman on YouTube which follows a Scottish lodge. This changed my perception of the organisation.

Don't agree with the violence in Belfast but it does seem to be a Belfast issue only, lodges outside have a good track record. The Ardoyne parade was adjusted as a result of dissident violence, this angered Unionist who reacted wrongly through violence.

GlynD

shaz77 wrote: »

It's more about modernising the language rather than changing the fundamentals. If you haven't already done so, watch 21st century Orangeman on YouTube which follows a Scottish lodge. This changed my perception of the organisation.

Don't agree with the violence in Belfast but it does seem to be a Belfast issue only, lodges outside have a good track record. The Ardoyne parade was adjusted as a result of dissident violence, this angered Unionist who reacted wrongly through violence.

Yes well you can only go so far when it's a "Protestant fraternity" I think we'd all agree that. I also believe I've seen that programme but I have some very real experience with Scottish Orangemen, some good, some bad. Same as over here. What these documentaries don't get to the bottom of however is the very overt bigotry which exists. I've seen it from both sides of the community and am totally appalled by it. It exists at the lower spectrum of the social scale. Ordinary grass roots people who tend to live in public housing estates: some of them lovely people too but with this inbuilt hatred of something they know nothing about - other men and their religion and aspirations.

These people would gladly have open warfare and some of them are the ones responsible for sectarian killings. I'm not talking about shootings by dissidents or other paramilitaries, I'm talking about beating teenagers to death etc because they're maybe known to be from a different religion/part of town, or maybe because they're wearing the wrong type of sports shirt.

In my opinion integration and the taking down of the social barriers caused by polarisation would stop this madness.

The Orange Order are wrong to try and bludgeon the people of Ardoyne and the government into acceptance. So are the Portadown lodges at Drumcree. Yes there may be an ulterior motive by dissidents or even SF but talking it through and getting agreement is the only way forward.

emmett123

GlynD wrote: »

Unfortunately that's true. It'll be generations until we're back to the way I remember it in the late 60's and early 70's before polarisation.

It's up to us to set the example however and be tolerant of all aspirations.

i think that nationalist would say that there was a cold house or polarization in the 60s and before and i for one certainly hope that it never goes back to way things were done on those days