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The First Minister's behaviour
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I'm fully aware of why the civil rights movement was set up. I'm also fully aware that not everyone had the same experiences as I did. I am however living proof that integrated housing works.
Did you know however that NICRA was the brainchild of the Wolfe Tone Societies and that they and the IRA (Stickies) set it up? Civil disturbance was the objective. Funny though that although it was People's Democracy who finally started the spiral into disaster, NICRA tried to rein them in because O'Neill had conceded most of their demands.
Is it a surprise that the NICRA was set up by Nationalist orgainisations as they were fighting for civil rights for Catholics?
As for it being set up to cause civil disturbance - I don't know where you have got that from, and it was set up to campaign for social justice and was made up of members from various different sources - so that no one body (Such as the IRA) had control over it - so could not use it to further there own cause.
As for being living proof that integrated housing works, one person doesn't create proof.
I know of a few people who went to integrated schools and are more bigoted than those of the same age who went to the Catholic Schools, is that proof that integrated schooling doesn't work?
I am not against Integrated education but I am against forced integrated education - parents have a right to choose how they want their children educated - and I am very much in favour of free Grammar Schools and all the current proposals for Integrated Education are for comprehensive schools, so I can't support these.Weight loss challenge, lose 15lb in 6 weeks before Christmas.0 -
Is it a surprise that the NICRA was set up by Nationalist orgainisations as they were fighting for civil rights for Catholics?
As for it being set up to cause civil disturbance - I don't know where you have got that from, and it was set up to campaign for social justice and was made up of members from various different sources - so that no one body (Such as the IRA) had control over it - so could not use it to further there own cause.
As for being living proof that integrated housing works, one person doesn't create proof.
I know of a few people who went to integrated schools and are more bigoted than those of the same age who went to the Catholic Schools, is that proof that integrated schooling doesn't work?
I am not against Integrated education but I am against forced integrated education - parents have a right to choose how they want their children educated - and I am very much in favour of free Grammar Schools and all the current proposals for Integrated Education are for comprehensive schools, so I can't support these.
If you read "Irish Nationalism" by Professor Richard English, or any other modern book about nationalism you'll find all are agreed that NICRA was set up to foment civil disturbance here with human rights as a cover.
Nor am I one person alone. There were loads of us and all have the same shared experiences. A mixed estate, probably more RC than Prod and never a minute's bitterness between us. Our parents also got on very well.
I'm sure there are people who have different experiences and I believe you re your comments about integrated schools but in both cases I would say they're in the minority. Discrimination existed but has been blown well out of all proportion. That is recognised by international historians as well as home based ones - and don't forget; it existed for Prods too.
Integration works and needs to happen.
I don't know enough about free grammar schools to comment on them.0 -
If you read "Irish Nationalism" by Professor Richard English, or any other modern book about nationalism you'll find all are agreed that NICRA was set up to foment civil disturbance here with human rights as a cover.
Nor am I one person alone. There were loads of us and all have the same shared experiences. A mixed estate, probably more RC than Prod and never a minute's bitterness between us. Our parents also got on very well.
I'm sure there are people who have different experiences and I believe you re your comments about integrated schools but in both cases I would say they're in the minority. Discrimination existed but has been blown well out of all proportion. That is recognised by international historians as well as home based ones - and don't forget; it existed for Prods too.
Integration works and needs to happen.
I don't know enough about free grammar schools to comment on them.
I'm sure there a lot of books that don't support the NICRA being a front - and frankly i believe its part of the reasons many nationalists are still bitter - the unionists will not admit the discrimination happened (and yes I accept it existed for Prods too - but to a much lesser extent as the country and most local councils were unionist - but the nationlist councils discriminated against the protestants as much as the unionist coucils discriminated against the nationalists)
I think the opinion in integrated housing depends on where you live - I grew up in an area which was relatively unaffected by the troubles but it was a rural area in a isolated farm house, but the road it was on was a mix of catholic and protestant, afaik the social housing in the area were also mixed as there was only a few estates,
Intergrated housing didn't work so well in other areas, its not a one model fits all solution in Northern Ireland, different things will work in different areas.Weight loss challenge, lose 15lb in 6 weeks before Christmas.0 -
I'm sure there a lot of books that don't support the NICRA being a front - and frankly i believe its part of the reasons many nationalists are still bitter - the unionists will not admit the discrimination happened (and yes I accept it existed for Prods too - but to a much lesser extent as the country and most local councils were unionist - but the nationlist councils discriminated against the protestants as much as the unionist coucils discriminated against the nationalists)
You'd be wrong in thinking there are books out there which don't explain how NICRA was a front for the IRA. Even the old IRA admit it now.
Unionists know that discrimination happened but again, referring to books, we can see that the level of it was far less than asserted by nationalist or republican groupings. Gerry Adams referred to it as being like apartheid and is scoffed by major historians the world over for even suggesting that it was anything nearly like that. It happened at council level, not above, and if the old Stormont administration had a fault it was for not reining in the councils.
I didn't know there was such a thing as a "nationalist" council in those days - didn't gerrymandering prevent such a thing? Derry being the prime example where a city with an 80% Catholic vote had a unionist council. Plus any such council would surely have been referred to as Catholic? Nationalism in the sense that it's used now is a pretty modern invention afaik. In those days we had Prods and Micks with a few republicans thrown in for good measure such as Paddy Devlin, an old IRA man himself but a very able politician and founder of the SDLP along with Gerry Fitt..I think the opinion in integrated housing depends on where you live - I grew up in an area which was relatively unaffected by the troubles but it was a rural area in a isolated farm house, but the road it was on was a mix of catholic and protestant, afaik the social housing in the area were also mixed as there was only a few estates,
Integrated housing didn't work so well in other areas, its not a one model fits all solution in Northern Ireland, different things will work in different areas.
I have to agree on this but I would insist that the only way forward is to gradually reintroduce integrated housing estates. I think Belfast will be the hardest nut to crack because there is incredible bitterness on both sides with politicians and "community representatives" stretching the bigotry out for their own ends.
Maybe it's time us culchies showed them the way?0 -
And it's OUR culture. That unique blend of Irish and Scots that you won't find anywhere else in the world.
What about the English? They don't seem to figure for some reason even though there cannot be one single Irish person who does not have English ancestry. An English surname is just as common amongst Sinn Fein candidates as in the general population as far as I can see.. Didn't the London guilds set up a whole county?
"Ulster Scots", an attempt to pervert the course of the English language if ever there was one, is only spoken in limited areas. Armagh for instance is a county with no Scottish heritage.
Scotland - colder, wetter, less healthy and more murderous by far than England. I've no affinity with the place at all.
Incomprehensible speech, deep fried Mars Bars, the Jimmy Shand Band and lifts used as urinals. What's the attraction? Beats me.
Truth is most of us are Irish/English beneath all the talk.“What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare0 -
I didn't know there was such a thing as a "nationalist" council in those days - didn't gerrymandering prevent such a thing? Derry being the prime example where a city with an 80% Catholic vote had a unionist council. Plus any such council would surely have been referred to as Catholic? Nationalism in the sense that it's used now is a pretty modern invention afaik.
No.
The old Irish nationalist party which was wiped out by Sinn Fein across Ireland in the 1919 general election actually did well in the area which became Northern Ireland then and continued to do so. Surely you're old enough to remember Eddie McAteer and Cahir Healy who continued as Nationalists until the more radical SDLP took over as the main Catholic choice?
Back in the 60s Limavady for instance used to oscillate between Unionist and Nationalist control. According to my relatives there, no one really noticed either way.“What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare0 -
Derry was only 70 % (only)
Plenty of places had nationalist councils.“What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare0 -
qwert_yuiop wrote: »What about the English? They don't seem to figure for some reason even though there cannot be one single Irish person who does not have English ancestry. An English surname is just as common amongst Sinn Fein candidates as in the general population as far as I can see.. Didn't the London guilds set up a whole county?
"Ulster Scots", an attempt to pervert the course of the English language if ever there was one, is only spoken in limited areas. Armagh for instance is a county with no Scottish heritage.
Scotland - colder, wetter, less healthy and more murderous by far than England. I've no affinity with the place at all.
Incomprehensible speech, deep fried Mars Bars, the Jimmy Shand Band and lifts used as urinals. What's the attraction? Beats me.
Truth is most of us are Irish/English beneath all the talk.
I think I've fallen for the Ulster/Scots thing because it's neat and fits the bill . In doing so I've left out the English and French Huguenots.
Of course you've left out the Lords of the Isles, the Scoti, who were Irish and ruled the larger part of Scotland.
qwert_yuiop wrote: »No.
The old Irish nationalist party which was wiped out by Sinn Fein across Ireland in the 1919 general election actually did well in the area which became Northern Ireland then and continued to do so. Surely you're old enough to remember Eddie McAteer and Cahir Healy who continued as Nationalists until the more radical SDLP took over as the main Catholic choice?
Back in the 60s Limavady for instance used to oscillate between Unionist and Nationalist control. According to my relatives there, no one really noticed either way.
I certainly remember Eddie McAteer but not Cahir Healey. Nor did I remember any nationalist councils, hence my query. This is worth discussing however because it's another indicator of what I've been saying: that the discrimination which existed wasn't as endemic as modern nationalist "historians" would have us believe. How did these nationalist councils perform in areas such as housing allocation? Were they fair or were they as discriminatory as some unionist councils?qwert_yuiop wrote: »Derry was only 70 % (only)
Plenty of places had nationalist councils.
Sorry. Got my figures wrong. Still a large RC majority however but with a unionist dominated council thanks to gerrymandering which was the responsibility of central government at Stormont.0
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