The First Minister's behaviour

lazer

GlynD wrote: »

1. Nothing wrong with the Irish national anthem. It's a sporting event and different anthems get played at many of these.

2. Announcements/programmes in Irish should be done away with to make the sport more inclusive, or at least be bilingual.

3. I wasn't aware that any grounds, tournaments or trophies were named after modern day terrorists. I could personally accept names from 1916 - 1921 on the grounds that the conflict there was almost 100 years ago and not worth arguing about now. I would have issues about namings things after modern day terrorists.

There's always a compromise. The GAA has made a big one by removing rule 27. I think they would agree that more can be done to attract Protestant membership, support and tolerance and I think they would do it because Irish culture isn't reserved just for Roman Catholics as my comments about Sam Maguire show. I've remarked before about how being Northern Irish is special. We're neither 100% Irish or 100% British. We should strive to make everything we have inclusive for everyone and to keep alive OUR culture which shares aspects of our own history and development.

As well as the first Catholic Orange Lodge we can have the first Protestant Hurley team: Clan na Ian Paisley

I agree that Irish culture isn't reserved for Catholics, I agree that we have our own identity in Northern Ireland, we are all part Irish, Part UK. I think its very good that some people can be as progressive as you and recognise that "Irishness" isn't offensive and in fact can be embraced by Catholics and Protestants, but unfortunately, everyone isn't that enlightened.

I have always found it sad that St Patricks Day is an seen as a catholic celebration in the North, St Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, and both Catholics and Protestants are Christian so both should celebrate this.

For information, the announcements are bilingual at the GAA games - or sometimes only in English.

We should strive to make everything all inclusive but that will take a big shift in the mindset of many people in the North

FWIW - I have attended 12th July parades as well (I lived on the Lisburn Road in Belfast so since there was nothing else I could do that day - thought I might as well watch!) but I no a lot of catholic that would never go mainly due to perceptions - some right some wrong.

tara747

The_Hurricane wrote: »

To me it's as bad, I find it offensive and quite threatening - why does it need to be shoved down my throat?

Why do you find it offensive and threatening, and how is it 'shoved down your throat'?

GlynD wrote: »

Firstly we should stop our politicians referring to "both" communities. There is only one community in Northern Ireland. Some of them just happen to go to different churches: Church of Ireland. Presbyterian, Methodist, Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Baptist etc etc.

Do away with putting Gaelic on street names, roadsides or whatever. It makes some members of the community feel unwelcome and is a block to full reintegration. I would except those names which have always been in Irish. Keep them Irish because that's how we know them.

Make murals glorifying terrorists illegal.

Make it illegal to fly flags, bunting etc or paint kerbs in partisan colours. Planning permission should be required to erect flags or bunting for festivals or parades.

Teach proper Irish history in all schools.

Keep existing integrated schools and have more of them. Over time eradicate religious or single creed schools entirely.

Commence reintegrating people into publicly owned housing estates, even if it means having CCTV to ensure anyone with extreme views doesn't try to run the estates.

Make the expression of sectarian views illegal. Much in the same way as they do with Nazism in Germany and impose the same severe prison sentences.

Ensure the religious balance of the PSNI stays at least 60/40. 50/50 is preferable.

Ban the Orange Order from politics - in fact ban all the loyal orders from interfering. Make it a condition that MLA's, MP's, TD's and MEP's cannot belong to any sectarian organisation. LOL, AOH, or whatever.

Make more progress on federalisation: more shared cross border initiatives.

Above all, make it as offensive to be sectarian as it is to be racist. As long as we accept sectarianism it will always be there. If we look down our noses at people who are sectarian it will change things. That may sound difficult but it used to be acceptable to drink and drive, we've changed that so it shows the impossible is possible.

Bravo Glyn! Can you be First Minister?

(See, I've managed to bring the thread back on-topic )

GlynD wrote: »

1. Nothing wrong with the Irish national anthem. It's a sporting event and different anthems get played at many of these.

2. Announcements/programmes in Irish should be done away with to make the sport more inclusive, or at least be bilingual. - this already happens - all announcements etc are in both Irish and English. Otherwise half the supporters wouldn't understand them!

3. I wasn't aware that any grounds, tournaments or trophies were named after modern day terrorists. I could personally accept names from 1916 - 1921 on the grounds that the conflict there was almost 100 years ago and not worth arguing about now. I would have issues about namings things after modern day terrorists. - I absolutely agree.

There's always a compromise. The GAA has made a big one by removing rule 27. - rule 21

I think they would agree that more can be done to attract Protestant membership, support and tolerance and I think they would do it because Irish culture isn't reserved just for Roman Catholics as my comments about Sam Maguire show. I've remarked before about how being Northern Irish is special. We're neither 100% Irish or 100% British. We should strive to make everything we have inclusive for everyone and to keep alive OUR culture which shares aspects of our own history and development.

As well as the first Catholic Orange Lodge we can have the first Protestant Hurley team: Clan na Ian Paisley

:rotfl::rotfl: at your last suggestion!

Other replies in pink. A great post, thank you.

GlynD

lazer wrote: »

I agree that Irish culture isn't reserved for Catholics, I agree that we have our own identity in Northern Ireland, we are all part Irish, Part UK. I think its very good that some people can be as progressive as you and recognise that "Irishness" isn't offensive and in fact can be embraced by Catholics and Protestants, but unfortunately, everyone isn't that enlightened.

I have always found it sad that St Patricks Day is an seen as a catholic celebration in the North, St Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, and both Catholics and Protestants are Christian so both should celebrate this.

For information, the announcements are bilingual at the GAA games - or sometimes only in English.

We should strive to make everything all inclusive but that will take a big shift in the mindset of many people in the North

FWIW - I have attended 12th July parades as well (I lived on the Lisburn Road in Belfast so since there was nothing else I could do that day - thought I might as well watch!) but I no a lot of catholic that would never go mainly due to perceptions - some right some wrong.

So you see, you and I are on the same track. We share many of the same values are and prepared to try and embrace others which are mutually beneficial. We're not alone in these views either. The major problems come from our estates of public housing and those are the sectors we and the politicians should be concentrating our educational efforts towards.

You don't see many riots up the Malone Road do you? Now why is that? Would you agree with me when I say it's because people there not only have better things to do but are more tolerant towards each other than the people in Berlin Street and the Springfield Road?

What is really needed at the moment is a mass reconciliation movement.

BTW in the army, Paddy's Day was a holiday and celebration. Prince Phillip presented our shamrock and everybody joined in the fun for the entire day. All Irish regiments in the army have always done this and still do.

So much of my Irishness comes from my time in the British Army. Ironic or what? I can still remember my colonel saying, so many times: "men - remember you're Irish, don't let the side down."

tara747

lazer wrote: »

I agree that Irish culture isn't reserved for Catholics, I agree that we have our own identity in Northern Ireland, we are all part Irish, Part UK. I think its very good that some people can be as progressive as you and recognise that "Irishness" isn't offensive and in fact can be embraced by Catholics and Protestants, but unfortunately, everyone isn't that enlightened.

I have always found it sad that St Patricks Day is an seen as a catholic celebration in the North, St Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, and both Catholics and Protestants are Christian so both should celebrate this.

For information, the announcements are bilingual at the GAA games - or sometimes only in English.

We should strive to make everything all inclusive but that will take a big shift in the mindset of many people in the North

FWIW - I have attended 12th July parades as well (I lived on the Lisburn Road in Belfast so since there was nothing else I could do that day - thought I might as well watch!) but I no a lot of catholic that would never go mainly due to perceptions - some right some wrong.

True about St Patrick's Day and the 12th. It would be great if both could be well supported by everyone, for they are a great day out. And the tourism potential is huge!

tara747

What I would like to see is an end to the vocabulary that seems to have sprung up here: it's all about victimhood and navel-gazing about the past. Yes, learn from the past, but FGS don't be fixated on it.

And for this I lay most of the blame at the door of our cynical, lazy politicians.

duggan1

GlynD wrote: »

Firstly we should stop our politicians referring to "both" communities. There is only one community in Northern Ireland. Some of them just happen to go to different churches: Church of Ireland. Presbyterian, Methodist, Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Baptist etc etc.

Would agree with that. See previous post regarding religion and public office... I believe religious faith is a personal issue, and should remain out of public life.

Do away with putting Gaelic on street names, roadsides or whatever. It makes some members of the community feel unwelcome and is a block to full reintegration. I would except those names which have always been in Irish. Keep them Irish because that's how we know them.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I've never felt unwelcome simply because of a sign or a flag. I'm not likely to be in areas with Irish signs too often but I don't think it would bother me.

Make murals glorifying terrorists illegal.

Agree.

Make it illegal to fly flags, bunting etc or paint kerbs in partisan colours. Planning permission should be required to erect flags or bunting for festivals or parades.

I don't agree with this, but I think people who erect flags should be made responsible for them. I'd introduce rules governing the display of flags on public and private property meaning they had to be acceptable (no UDA/IRA flags etc), and had to be maintained in good order. I find the flying of torn and dirty flags to be offensive, of both sides. Flags should be something to be proud of and it is a shame they are mistreated over here so much.

Teach proper Irish history in all schools.

Keep existing integrated schools and have more of them. Over time eradicate religious or single creed schools entirely.

Couldn't agree more. I went to integrated schools and while there were still divisions, they tended to be self made and competitive rather than antagonistic.

Commence reintegrating people into publicly owned housing estates, even if it means having CCTV to ensure anyone with extreme views doesn't try to run the estates.

Make the expression of sectarian views illegal. Much in the same way as they do with Nazism in Germany and impose the same severe prison sentences.

Housing estates is tricky but necessary in my view. Tear down the walls too.

Ensure the religious balance of the PSNI stays at least 60/40. 50/50 is preferable.

Positive discrimination is a double edged sword. I'd rather have good policemen than balanced numbers. It is something I would expect to even itself out over time anyway though.

Ban the Orange Order from politics - in fact ban all the loyal orders from interfering. Make it a condition that MLA's, MP's, TD's and MEP's cannot belong to any sectarian organisation. LOL, AOH, or whatever.

Make more progress on federalisation: more shared cross border initiatives.

Above all, make it as offensive to be sectarian as it is to be racist. As long as we accept sectarianism it will always be there. If we look down our noses at people who are sectarian it will change things. That may sound difficult but it used to be acceptable to drink and drive, we've changed that so it shows the impossible is possible.

Quite correct. It's possible to enjoy your culture without being sectarian and it's an element that needs to be removed from society by force if necessary.

mezza101

lazer wrote: »

I agree that Irish culture isn't reserved for Catholics, I agree that we have our own identity in Northern Ireland, we are all part Irish, Part UK. I think its very good that some people can be as progressive as you and recognise that "Irishness" isn't offensive and in fact can be embraced by Catholics and Protestants, but unfortunately, everyone isn't that enlightened.

in uk we have scottish, welsh, english and irish, so yes no prob with being irish in the uk.......

I have always found it sad that St Patricks Day is an seen as a catholic celebration in the North, St Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, and both Catholics and Protestants are Christian so both should celebrate this.

there are prods who celebrate st pat but not with booze and tricolour

FWIW - I have attended 12th July parades as well (I lived on the Lisburn Road in Belfast so since there was nothing else I could do that day - thought I might as well watch!) but I no a lot of catholic that would never go mainly due to perceptions - some right some wrong.

fwiw - i dont attend 12th july parades or any other parades but believe people should be allowed to have their parades, whether they be gay pride, 12th or internment parade........

GlynD

duggan1 wrote: »

<snip>It's possible to enjoy your culture without being sectarian and it's an element that needs to be removed from society by force if necessary.

And it's OUR culture. That unique blend of Irish and Scots that you won't find anywhere else in the world. Who gives a curse what religion somebody is as long as you can walk into a pub and strike up a conversation with someone you've never net before or help an unfortunate stranger along the road who's got a flat tyre.

That's how it was in the 60's - I can remember it, and that's what I'd like to see it return to. Good old fashioned Northern Irish values.

GlynD

mezza101 wrote: »

there are prods who celebrate st pat but not with booze and tricolour

..

Err - you should have seen us in the army

Not only waving the tricolour but having it on the wall in the squadron bar with the Wolfe Tones blaring out "Men Behind the Wire" from behind the counter. :rotfl:

EDIT: Our big treat on Paddy's Day was our senior ranks (sergeants and sergeant majors) waking us at 8.30 am (2 hrs later than usual) with a big mug of gunfire (rum and tea). It set you up for the day. I can't remember what else happened on those booze soaked days other than watching football between two squadrons of the regiment before getting so blootered that I didn't care.

I think we had a dance in the evening but it probably should have been called "a crawl" because that's all most of us were capable of. Plus anyone who got put in jail that day had an amnesty.

mezza101

GlynD wrote: »

Err - you should have seen us in the army

Not only waving the tricolour but having it on the wall in the squadron bar with the Wolfe Tones blaring out "Men Behind the Wire" from behind the counter. :rotfl:

lol but my point is that some prods celebrate st pat for his christian values, not for nationality or booze up, which have nothing to do with st pat :eek: