The First Minister's behaviour

GlynD

Cotta wrote: »

This thread has lost it's way completely.

Not at all. It's just gone a little off topic. The discussion is still interesting which is why I'm here.

lazer wrote: »

Flippancys can be offensive, and don't show respect to the other culture.

Also The GAA was actually banned by the British Government in 1918 across the whole island of Ireland (Including the North). I don't know how long the ban lasted or many details about it but I do remember that the British Government banned it at one stage.

I agree that culture should not be rammed down peoples throats, all painted kerbstones should be painted over, no flags in lampposts etc and far less parades.
Parades should be limited to 2 days a year for each side (The 12th and St Patricks Days being 2 of the days, the other can be debated and one day picked each) - all other parades, meetings etc to be in fields.

It is time to move on but it has to be done fairly with each culture being equally represented.

Polictics should be based on what is best for NI, not on what the nationalists see as best for them, and on what the unionist see as best for them.

But with the folks on the hill seemingly more interested in petty squabbling about parades, peace centres, flags etc than in actually making NI better, its never going to move on.

Rest assured I'm just as flippant about my own culture. That's me: I'm just a flippant flipper.

Gaelic sports weren't banned during the War of Indepence. It was public gatherings which were banned, including all team sports. I don't know how long the ban went on for but it couldn't have been more than three years.

I fully agree with you as regards painted kerbstones and other partisan symbols. I hate them. They are intimidating and unsightly. These murals are dreadful as well.

I can't see parades being resolved so easily. I don't take part in them so I haven't got an insight into what they mean for people other than Paddy's Day. I'm glad it has taken on a broader significance for the Protestant people. We celebrated it in the army and were stunned by the refusal of people at home to join in.

We should move on you're right but as long as the votes of the masses count then we're going to be saddled with partisan politics. Change the opinion of the masses then you're on the way to proper politics. To me that means integration.

I don't need to be integrated because in my view I already am. Ok I may have some cultural differences or preferences which are different from other people I live beside or talk to but that's what life is about. It's our differences which make us the people we are - not something to fight over.

GlynD

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Why do Orangemen in the PSNI have to to advise of their membership etc and they are also not allowed to parade. Parity my dear friend???

The Orange Order is sectarian, that's why. It's the same with Freemasons (except they're not sectarian, they're a secret society) although the law has been relaxed for them: it used to be they had to register with the local magistrate.

GlynD

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Would you not give Nelson a vote?

Good enough politician in my view but I couldn't bring myself to vote for the DUP or any other party which bases its manifesto on religious fundamentalism. I don't want to see the p[ark swings chained up again on Sundays and I like Sunday opening.

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Ok then the broadcasting of GAA will be limited to one day per year.

Your attack was purely aimed at all things Protestant, why are you so full of hate?

I don't see it as hate. Many Catholics are very wary of Protestant views because they feel that they have been oppressed in the past. That view is flawed of course as we know (or should know) but Nationalist politicking has left its mark. It's a fundamental of any nationalist movement that there should be grievance to "struggle" against. I'm not saying there wasn't any discrimination here, of course there was, but it has been blown out of all proportion. The simple fact is: if certain groupings had accepted the achievements of the Civil Rights movement in the 60's we'd have had a lot more progress far sooner than we've had. There were sinister forces at work however. Our naive and frightened government played right into their hands.

lazer

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Why? The GAA is rampant within the PSNI and Integrated education.

Firstly its not and secondly as GlynD says this is a good thing, it shows an acceptance and a more mixed police force (And FWIW some Catholics are very much against the PSNI playing Gaelic football too)

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Ok then the broadcasting of GAA will be limited to one day per year.

I don't think the GAA is actually broadcast much on the BBC - I watch it RTE mainly.

Your attack was purely aimed at all things Protestant, why are you so full of hate?

Flags, kerbstones and parades are not protestant issues both sides are guilty of this - never been to west Belfast? I don't like it on either side, If I'm full of hate for anything its for both sides and the how ridicilous the situation is.

The_Hurricane wrote: »

Why do Orangemen in the PSNI have to to advise of their membership etc and they are also not allowed to parade. Parity my dear friend???

Again as GlynD said - it's sectarian organisation, they probably have to advise of their membership due to the fact that some of the more militant unionists may also be members (I don't know this - just guessing) and it is probably for their own safety that they aren't allowed to parade.
Members of the PSNI are also advised not to attend some GAA games, not to frequent certain bars etc, again it is for their own safety.

And I think I ahve gone as far as I am going to go into this conversation - I'm agreeing with GlynD too much - it's too strange for me and I don't think I can add anything more to the debate at this stage.

GlynD

lazer wrote: »

<snip>

And I think I ahve gone as far as I am going to go into this conversation - I'm agreeing with GlynD too much - it's too strange for me!

You're just realising that my views, although odd at times, are very moderate. We're never going to agree on everything but isn't it great that we can have this conversation?

We've become integrated.

lazer

GlynD wrote: »

Good enough politician in my view but I couldn't bring myself to vote for the DUP or any other party which bases its manifesto on religious fundamentalism. I don't want to see the p[ark swings chained up again on Sundays and I like Sunday opening.



I don't see it as hate. Many Catholics are very wary of Protestant views because they feel that they have been oppressed in the past. That view is flawed of course as we know (or should know) but Nationalist politicking has left its mark. It's a fundamental of any nationalist movement that there should be grievance to "struggle" against. I'm not saying there wasn't any discrimination here, of course there was, but it has been blown out of all proportion. The simple fact is: if certain groupings had accepted the achievements of the Civil Rights movement in the 60's we'd have had a lot more progress far sooner than we've had. There were sinister forces at work however. Our naive and frightened government played right into their hands.

If you really think this I suggest you read of on it a little more - the discrimination was rife across a lot of areas, Catholics were second class citizens in "A protestant State for a Protestant People" but I do agree that the Civil Rights movement would have actually achieved a lot more a lot quicker without the influence of as you say the more sinister forces and the over the top reaction of the British Government.

GlynD

lazer wrote: »

If you really think this I suggest you read of on it a little more - the discrimination was rife across a lot of areas, Catholics were second class citizens in "A protestant State for a Protestant People" but I do agree that the Civil Rights movement would have actually achieved a lot more a lot quicker without the influence of as you say the more sinister forces and the over the top reaction of the British Government.

I'm very well read on it as a matter of fact. This isn't the right place for the discussion but I will say that it's now a well known fact that the reported discrimination was blown out of all proportion. Where it did affect Catholic's was at local council level. That's who controlled housing. If there was a failing on the part of the Unionist government it was their inability or refusal to rein these councils in. Available statistics show that it didn't affect the civil service or the police and other institutions which were outwith the control of local councils.

The British government weren't to blame. It was Stormont who were at fault for not reacting properly to the crisis. It should never have come to Direct Rule if it had been handled properly. Again the big failure was in not reining in Protestant extremists who were terribly violent.

The old "A protestant State etc etc" may seem a strange one now but you need to weigh it up against what was happening in the south where the pogroms were going on against Protestants. This intolerance and apparent blindness of the new Irish state was overlooked for a long time. It could be said that the Irish Free State (and subsequent republic) was a "Catholic State for a Catholic People".

Of course two wrongs don't make a right but we weren't alive then and can only read and weep at what actually happened.

I firmly believe that if it weren't for the Long Fellow that there would have been closer co-operation between north and south in the spirit of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 long before it actually started with O'Neill and Lemass. Unfortunately the Irish people were blinded by Dev's revolutionary credentials. They never caught on to him until the very end when he was forced to resign against his will as President.

There's much to discuss and plenty of if's and buts. The necessity for us is to understand this history and let it be history at last instead of making it a precondition of any discussion of politics along the lines of "you did that in 1825 so we're going to do this in 2013".

You can shove your 1690 and Oliver Cromwell up your nether bits. I'm concerned about what's happening now and achieving peace, equality and friendship amongst the entire people of this island. I've done this personally so why can't the rest of the country follow suit?

pepper33

I think we all need to move forwards, and stop thinking about the past, don't let history dictate to us now. I am Protestant and have been in bombings, school days were awful with bomb scares, and it carried on into my working days, and I just prayer that it doesn't happen again. My dad and grandfather were both from the south, and had to move north, as 'no protestants need apply for a job here' But there was no bitterness with my dad, he got on with all sides. Couldn't stick all the rows about the Ormeau Bridge and people not allowing other people to walk. I will not allow history to destroy what is left of my life, with MLA's doing nothing except have arguments, about which side is doing what. Fly whatever flag you want, most people just want to get on with their lives, north and south. I wish you all the best, but look forward instead of backwards, that's what got us into the troubles.

highrisklowreturn

Usual lies being told on this threat by the RC front.

Perhaps you would have found the north less hostile had not your co religionists and political supporters in the south been a little less inclined to shooting, bombing, burning out, land-grabbing, discriminating, victimising against every non-Catholic in the state.

How does it feel to know that even if you get a united Ireland your church and religion are utterly dead and dormant with no one to protect you from mass immigration, child abortion, limitless drugs, alcohol and pornography (all English and American ideas brought in to your country because they run your media - the modern equivalent of running your political system), the future complete destruction of gaelic and its prohibition by fine gael in the irish government etc etc etc

Your people in the north are an anachronism, the recent disgusting show in ardoyne for Thomas Begley exemplifying exactly why you should perhaps (text removed by MSE Forum Team) en masse to Sarajevo or suweto or somewhere else that would be congenial to your prejudices.

warmhands.coldheart

Someone just back from Twaddell Avenue and had a few too many bottles of Buckfast !!