Challenging pay comparing against colleague

ILW

Southend1 wrote: »

So your argument is basically that if someone hasn't had the opportunity to learn to negotiate "like a man" then they deserve to be paid less than someone else doing like work?

Women are not excluded from learning to negotiate, nothing stopping them if they chose.

Seems to be that you do not wish for women to be treated equally in the workplace, you want different rules based on gender.

SueC_2

Southend1 wrote: »

So your argument is basically that if someone hasn't had the opportunity to learn to negotiate "like a man" then they deserve to be paid less than someone else doing like work?

Noooooooo..... they deserve to be taught the skills they need and not patronisingly treated like they are incapable of learning those skills.

Missme

SueC wrote: »

Noooooooo..... they deserve to be taught the skills they need and not patronisingly treated like they are incapable of learning those skills.

So until they are taught the skills they need let's try and irradicate the culture that allows them to be exploited. Though if the culture is gone, the skills are redundant. It's not about being patronising it's abouut levelling the playing field.

scheming_gypsy

it's got nothing to do with negotiating.

two jobs jobs advertised at 26 - 35k
Woman offered job and asked what salary she's looking at and says £28k
Man is offered the job and requests 33k

both get the job on their requested salaries to work with 10 other people. Should those other 10 people (mix of male and female) get a pay rise to 33k because they'd be paid less than the man?

ILW

Missme wrote: »

Completely agree that we should women to have a a better sense of being on a par with men and to some extent we have done that. It's just unfortunate that for some women that equates to 'ladette' behaviour.



I largely don't imply things - I say things overtly. What you infer is about you not me.

You said that women require an advocate. My experience is that the vast majority do not and are capable of looking after themselves. I truly believe it is an attitude such as yours which holds women back.

I am not referring to some of the more "orthodox" religions here though. (But that is a different matter).

AP007

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

it's got nothing to do with negotiating.

two jobs jobs advertised at 26 - 35k
Woman offered job and asked what salary she's looking at and says £28k
Man is offered the job and requests 33k

both get the job on their requested salaries to work with 10 other people. Should those other 10 people (mix of male and female) get a pay rise to 33k because they'd be paid less than the man?

I know my answer to that

Southend1

SueC wrote: »

Noooooooo..... they deserve to be taught the skills they need and not patronisingly treated like they are incapable of learning those skills.

And since they are not, in the meantime they should be paid less than their male counterparts doing like work? I'm glad the law agrees with me on this issue!

Southend1

ILW wrote: »

Women are not excluded from learning to negotiate, nothing stopping them if they chose.

Seems to be that you do not wish for women to be treated equally in the workplace, you want different rules based on gender.

Seriously, read the Deborah Tannen book - it is a little outdated (1990s) but it may well broaden your mind a little on the subject.

ILW

Southend1 wrote: »

Seriously, read the Deborah Tannen book - it is a little outdated (1990s) but it may well broaden your mind a little on the subject.

Guess I have just spent a lot of my working life (mainly sales and recruitment) with women who were more than capable and would find your attitude that they need help rather demeaning.
Most had very little time for other women who were "weak" and used their gender as an excuse.

Missme

ILW wrote: »

You said that women require an advocate. My experience is that the vast majority do not and are capable of looking after themselves. I truly believe it is an attitude such as yours which holds women back.

I am not referring to some of the more "orthodox" religions here though. (But that is a different matter).

Perhaps advocate was the wrong choice of word. What I meant is that women, and whatever other disadvantaged group, need a collective voice because there is strength in numbers.

People learn to operate under all sorts of constraints in all sorts of circumstances. They adapt to survive. That doesn't make the circumstance fair and all I'm arguing is that things should be fair.

So I disagree that my attitude holds women back but if you see being pro equity and empowerment in that way then that's your opinion.