Challenging pay comparing against colleague

sian123

I think this is definitely something that you should raise with HR and make sure you know exactly what points that you want to cover and don't let them manipulate you into feeling like you are being silly. You should say that your long term commitment should be rewarded

scheming_gypsy

sian123 wrote: »

I think this is definitely something that you should raise with HR and make sure you know exactly what points that you want to cover and don't let them manipulate you into feeling like you are being silly. You should say that your long term commitment should be rewarded

Like she did yesterday?

SueC_2

Missme wrote: »

the reasons why a woman might ask for less, or rather not ask for more, may well be wrapped up the expectations and constraints that society has historically forced onto women.

Then isn't that what we should be addressing? Teaching women to have a higher self worth, and act like men when necessary? Rather than letting us think we deserve something just by virtue of the fact that we don't have a willy?

Missme

ILW wrote: »

You seem to have a very low opinion of women in this country.

Yeah? How you arrive at that mystifies me.

Southend1

SueC wrote: »

Then isn't that what we should be addressing? Teaching women to have a higher self worth, and act like men when necessary? Rather than letting us think we deserve something just by virtue of the fact that we don't have a willy?

Should we also teach LGBT people to act like straight people or BME people to make themselves up like white people in order to suit your vision of how society should work?

ILW

Missme wrote: »

Yeah? How you arrive at that mystifies me.

You seem to be implying that women in general are incapable of doing such things as negotiating their own salaries without someone to help them. with that attitude from their own, no wonder some are downtrodden.

SueC_2

Southend1 wrote: »

Should we also teach LGBT people to act like straight people or BME people to make themselves up like white people in order to suit your vision of how society should work?

We should teach everyone to be the best possible 'them' they can be, whatever they look like on the outside. That is not the same as trying to teach them to be someone they are not.

Negotiation is a skill that can be taught. Being white / straight isn't.

To adopt an attitude that women are incapable of asking for a payrise, and therefore need to be granted one on the basis that they are 'just a poor little girly' could actually be interpreted as completely at odds with the basic premise of equality.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to go fishing and he will never go hungry.

Missme

ILW wrote: »

Is the point I have missed, somehow blaming society for ones own inadequacies?

Being excluded or disadvantaged by the way 'the system' works is tangible and measurable. Why does someone have to be inadequate? Maybe they just don't fit the template.

AP007 wrote: »

You'd think since we got the vote their would be stronger women in the family to teach their daughters they are worth the same if not often more than men in the work place. This is the problem we have with people bringing up their children to feel 2nd class

It's more subtle than teaching girls to feel 2nd class. We teach them about the differences between feminity and masculinity and acceptable behaviour for each. For instance, why isn't there a gender neutral or feminine version of 'man up' or 'grow a pair'?

Southend1

SueC wrote: »

We should teach everyone to be the best possible 'them' they can be, whatever they look like on the outside. That is not the same as trying to teach them to be someone they are not.

AGREED

Negotiation is a skill that can be taught. Being white / straight isn't.

Agreed that negotiation skills can and should be taught.

To adopt an attitude that women are incapable of asking for a payrise, and therefore need to be granted one on the basis that they are 'just a poor little girly' could actually be interpreted as completely at odds with the basic premise of equality.

Didn't say that... what I said was that the skills and qualities that society encourages in girls and the expectations placed on women are different to those encouraged in boys and that this can and does lead to women being disadvantaged at work.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to go fishing and he will never go hungry.

So your argument is basically that if someone hasn't had the opportunity to learn to negotiate "like a man" then they deserve to be paid less than someone else doing like work?

Missme

SueC wrote: »

Then isn't that what we should be addressing? Teaching women to have a higher self worth, and act like men when necessary? Rather than letting us think we deserve something just by virtue of the fact that we don't have a willy?

SueC wrote: »

We should teach everyone to be the best possible 'them' they can be, whatever they look like on the outside. That is not the same as trying to teach them to be someone they are not.

Negotiation is a skill that can be taught. Being white / straight isn't.

To adopt an attitude that women are incapable of asking for a payrise, and therefore need to be granted one on the basis that they are 'just a poor little girly' could actually be interpreted as completely at odds with the basic premise of equality.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to go fishing and he will never go hungry.

Completely agree that we should women to have a a better sense of being on a par with men and to some extent we have done that. It's just unfortunate that for some women that equates to 'ladette' behaviour.

ILW wrote: »

You seem to be implying that women in general are incapable of doing such things as negotiating their own salaries without someone to help them. with that attitude from their own, no wonder some are downtrodden.

I largely don't imply things - I say things overtly. What you infer is about you not me.