being dismissed for poor performance

Southend1

CKhalvashi wrote: »

It's no different in our industry, either.

Contracted hours, and an implied requirements are completely different in many industries, of which the general attitude in the office, is that if it's reasonable expected, it's done, and you'll be paid overtime for it.

It's not unusual or unreasonable for our team to average 60 hours over 4/5 days, especially when they're being paid for it.

CK

Just to make it clear that I wasn't paid for most overtime as I was a salaried employee. The only overtime pay was time and a half on Sundays and plain time on bank holidays. For people who started at the company a year later than me even that overtime entitlement was removed as these became normal contracted days. My contract said something along the lines of you have no fixed hours of work and hours of work will be whatever is needed to do the job, which basically translated meant you will work all the hours god sends and if you're lucky we may let you go home for a couple of hours sleep whenever we think you're in danger of dropping down dead from exhaustion.

As you say, working hours can be quite deep rooted in the organisational culture so the only real options are to leave or try to turn around the culture. Clearly the first option is far easier.

CKhalvashi

Southend1 wrote: »

As you say, working hours can be quite deep rooted in the organisational culture so the only real options are to leave or try to turn around the culture. Clearly the first option is far easier.

Generally, I'm happy to do it (and I do muck in with my staff), so I've left it that way.

If I wasn't, it would be a different story.

CK

macman

I fail to see how your employer can dismiss you for poor performance (or indeed on any grounds) if you have not received a single formal or written warning?
The only grounds for dismissal without warning would be if you were caught with your hands in the till, assaulted another member of staff in front of witnesses etc. And even then, the usual sanction is suspension on full pay first.
This procedure may of course be the start of a process to dismiss you, but it would still have a long way to go beyond that.

happenstance

CKhalvashi wrote: »

It's no different in our industry, either.

Contracted hours, and an implied requirements are completely different in many industries, of which the general attitude in the office, is that if it's reasonable expected, it's done, and you'll be paid overtime for it.

It's not unusual or unreasonable for our team to average 60 hours over 4/5 days, especially when they're being paid for it.

CK

I just find it all a bit sad that I'm being called "arrogant" and "wouldn't last 5 mins somewhere" as I refused to work outside of my contracted hours for free. I did the five years before that and it led me to a breakdown. I flat out refused unpaid overtime and got comments like "half day today?" and "your leaving early" just by doing the standard working hours listed in my contract. If somethings making me unwell surely it would be insane to keep doing it?

For my industry it is expected to work what ever hours to do the project, overtime is unpaid but after a busy few weeks you will get a day or two off where you just sleep.

As unpaid overtime is expected (despite your work), if you leave on time you will be seen as a slacker. I'm one of the most productive on my team, there are plenty of dead wood that take credit for my work but they stay late, go out with management for drinks after work and so management see them as the most vital members of the team. When actually they are the least effective.

As you say it's easier to just leave, but still I feel massively undervalued and the whole poor performance is just an excuse.

happenstance

macman wrote: »

I fail to see how your employer can dismiss you for poor performance (or indeed on any grounds) if you have not received a single formal or written warning?
The only grounds for dismissal without warning would be if you were caught with your hands in the till, assaulted another member of staff in front of witnesses etc. And even then, the usual sanction is suspension on full pay first.
This procedure may of course be the start of a process to dismiss you, but it would still have a long way to go beyond that.

It sounds like they can do what they like pretty much, be judge and jury. Lots of rights were changed this July in favor of the employer.

CKhalvashi

happenstance wrote: »

I just find it all a bit sad that I'm being called "arrogant" and "wouldn't last 5 mins somewhere" as I refused to work outside of my contracted hours for free. I did the five years before that and it led me to a breakdown. I flat out refused unpaid overtime and got comments like "half day today?" and "your leaving early" just by doing the standard working hours listed in my contract. If somethings making me unwell surely it would be insane to keep doing it?

For my industry it is expected to work what ever hours to do the project, overtime is unpaid but after a busy few weeks you will get a day or two off where you just sleep.

As unpaid overtime is expected (despite your work), if you leave on time you will be seen as a slacker. I'm one of the most productive on my team, there are plenty of dead wood that take credit for my work but they stay late, go out with management for drinks after work and so management see them as the most vital members of the team. When actually they are the least effective.

As you say it's easier to just leave, but still I feel massively undervalued and the whole poor performance is just an excuse.

Our industry (I'm in Music) revolves heavily around self-employment, where as a company, we don't, however unless the money is good, I certainly wouldn't expect to have staff working for free. If the works there, I agree, as an employer, it should be paid.

It depends on the money, and whether you want the job IMO.

CK

liney

Firstly, I'm betting that your contract has a line about, 'working in excess of normal hours if the needs of the business require.' If you do not sign a 48 hour opt out form, then the 'needs of the business' can require you to work outside of your 9am - 5pm as long as you do not exceed 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks. https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out

Secondly, your boss reminding you that he is your boss, is not 'threatening.' He is reminding you that you are skating on thin ice due to your disregard for his authority. Telling them, you'll dress how you like, and having an unkempt appearance (unshaven, but not groomed), is unprofessional.

You say XYZ is stated on the dress code. If I wore a skirt that hadn't been ironed and was 5 inches above my knee, plus my husband's shirt, it would technically be within the dress code. I would definately be taken aside. If the company are showing displeasure then you need to act. Dress codes can easily be re-written, and we should not be acting like children trying to 'get one over on the head teacher' by pushing the limits of our school uniform.

If you struggle to shave daily, you need a different approch. I know that electric razors can have attachments that leave you with 'uniform' stubble. This makes you looked groomed, and will not irritate your skin.

Bluntly, being so militant will get you fired. If the company are smart they will ensure that they follow proceedure and use this rope you are providing them with to hang you.

happenstance

liney wrote: »

Firstly, I'm betting that your contract has a line about, 'working in excess of normal hours if the needs of the business require.' If you do not sign a 48 hour opt out form, then the 'needs of the business' can require you to work outside of your 9am - 5pm as long as you do not exceed 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks. https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out

Yes I know legally they can ask me to do excess hours, but on the floor the management say I can't charge these hours in. Expected to work for free is the issue. When I contact HR to raise this issue all of a sudden management say im a low performer.

Secondly, your boss reminding you that he is your boss, is not 'threatening.' He is reminding you that you are skating on thin ice due to your disregard for his authority. Telling them, you'll dress how you like, and having an unkempt appearance (unshaven, but not groomed), is unprofessional.

Regardless of what someone says their tone and mannerisms determine if it is threatening or not. I'm the boss of my life, my supervisor at work is just that.

I dress according to my companies code.

You say XYZ is stated on the dress code. If I wore a skirt that hadn't been ironed and was 5 inches above my knee, plus my husband's shirt, it would technically be within the dress code. I would definately be taken aside. If the company are showing displeasure then you need to act. Dress codes can easily be re-written, and we should not be acting like children trying to 'get one over on the head teacher' by pushing the limits of our school uniform.

Its not the companies its a jumped up manager, if he said what he said via email he would be disciplined.

I wear a polo neck and chinos as listed in my terms of employment.

If you struggle to shave daily, you need a different approch. I know that electric razors can have attachments that leave you with 'uniform' stubble. This makes you looked groomed, and will not irritate your skin.

Why are people jumping to conclusions that i must not iron my clothes and look like scruff? weird.

Bluntly, being so militant will get you fired. If the company are smart they will ensure that they follow proceedure and use this rope you are providing them with to hang you.

Following my terms of employment is militant?

liney

The 48 hours stands as long as it does not take you below the minimum wage when averaged out. https://www.gov.uk/overtime-your-rights/overview

You mention 'charge these hours in.' Are you a contractor?

You are being militant, with your 'work to rule' attitude.

Vectis

Have to say, and you probably wont like it, but the longer this thread has gone on the more difficult and stubborn you come across.

You seem to have a number of issues with your employers. You keep repeating that you will work to your contracted hours etc and that's it. You can't seem to heed advice about your appearance (you're just following the handbook etc). You also don't seem to have much of a relationship with the other employees (snide remarks, in your opinion, made to you). Thinking that a manager deliberately tripped you up (and I can't believe you actually reported that to your HR Dept!) comes across as paranoid.

I think you need to get out, now. Look for another job. I'd guess your employer can't sack you straight off, and you'll possibly just get a warning, but they can manage you out eventually if they know what they're doing. Leave before that happens.

Sorry if that comes across as a bit tough, but you don't come across well from what you've said here.