Brother borrowed 20k without consent

NANANINANOONOO

We have now learnt from the bank theselves that they do have to keep records for 6 years but they are not kept in branch and cannot be accessed by branch bank staff.

They will have records of what documents were verified, by whom and by what method they were forwarded to the third party (in dads case the shareholders) and there should even be CCTV but they are held in a central place and can only be accessed under police request themselves and not by a customer especially when a criminal case has been instigated.

Its now a waiting game for the police investigation to get properly underway and they will be able to get access to all the information needed.

There has been quite a lot of differing opinions on procedures but it is important to establish what exactly took place in order to prove my brothers fraudulent actions before my dad can hope to recoup anything from him. If along the way it does transpire that the bank are at fault or lapse in any way, with a conviction against him they too will be able to recoup there losses from my brother anyway.

jonesMUFCforever

I get the impression you are !!!!!footing around your brother but want to blame the bank for everything - why?
Do you intend to try and sue the bank?

jonesMUFCforever

He knows that the brother has done it - everybody reading this thread knows it but still the police '' are starting to investigate'' - the bro could be in Brazil by the time they actually do something about it.

I say confront the bro now - get his side and try to get the money back if possible.

jamie11

Have you thought about taking this to a CIVIL court?

If you can get a judgment then you should be able to use the bailiff to recover as much as you can.

Also try to get a credit report on your brother to find out if he already has ccj's outstanding.

dktreesea

OP, what a horrible experience. I didn't want to just read and run. Good on you for supporting your poor dad so much and getting the ball rolling. Maybe your brother thought the money he was helping himself to week in week out were like "fees" he was entitled to for "managing" your Dad's money?

Even if you present the evidence to your neice and nephews, their dad will probably be telling them any money he got was with their grandfather's full consent. It isn't so much that they will believe their dad. It's more that they benefit directly from their dad (e.g. by living in the family home) rather than their granddad. This issue doesn't just have the potential to disrupt their father's world - it could massively disrupt theirs as well if, for instance, they still live in the family home.

If you think about the way this could go, i.e. your brother charged and convicted, possibly even sent to jail, then the police using the Proceeds of Crime Act to seize his assets and liquidate them in order to pay your father back, the ramifications for your brother's family are enormous. Your dad's accounts were liquidated over a long period of time; no court, imho, is going to believe your brother's claim that your dad gave him the money. Especially if they find cases where he appears to have forged your dad's signature.

Here's an example of how this could go:
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/10618692.Couple_jailed_after_stealing___62k_from_mentally_ill_relative_for_expensive_motorbikes_and_cars/

I'm sorry about the situation, but if your dad is going to see this all the way through, then he is going to have to toughen up. Your brother can solve this for himmself right now by remortgaging his own house and paying the £50k (or whatever the sum eventually turns out to be as you unearth more and more evidence) back to your dad pronto. It sounds though like he is trying to be invisible and hoping the problem will go away. He obviously expects that eventually your dad will refuse to press charges, letting him off the hook, once the reality of the awful consequences his son will suffer if he does press on come down to bear on him. As you said, he feels guilty already. Once your brother is arrested - once it goes beyond being interviewed under caution - there's no going back. His life will be changed. Even if he were eventually found innocent (which I doubt) he would still be answering "have you ever been arrested" with "yes", rather than "no" forever more.

Are you and your Dad really sure about this? I know your brother has turned out to be a scumbag, but losing a brother and a son, not to mention his whole family, over money seems drastic to me.

troubleinparadise

Dktreesea: Are you and your Dad really sure about this? I know your brother has turned out to be a scumbag, but losing a brother and a son, not to mention his whole family, over money seems drastic to me.

The brother/son unconditional family relationship is already lost due to his continued deliberate deception and theft of his father's money over a matter of years.

It is the actions of the son that have led to the situation as it is today.

The son could arrange to pay all the money back tomorrow, but he will not repair 100% the damage to the relationship he has chosen to cause.

It may be that there will be a rapprochement over time, but it will never erase that betrayal of trust.

How would you handle it?

NANANINANOONOO

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

He knows that the brother has done it - everybody reading this thread knows it but still the police '' are starting to investigate'' - the bro could be in Brazil by the time they actually do something about it.

I say confront the bro now - get his side and try to get the money back if possible.

Firstly I am female. My brother has been confronted and interviewed under caution and still claims our 84 year old father gave him every penny he owned (50k +) and allowed him to transfer money into his own account. He is on tape closing down shares and claims my father knew he was doing it.

These are the facts - the voice tape is damning and the paper trail is evident but it is still my fathers word against his and has to be proved. The police could take months making a case and need to establish exactly how he did it.

My father has given time for his son whom he trusted to make some sort effort to explain himself or man up and admit his actions however shameful...but nothing! Dad has taken the painful decision to officially report his sons crime to the police and the elderly adult safeguarding team who are confident they have a case hence he will be prosecuted and sentenced but it still has to be proved.

Surely everyone can see the banks role is an obvious and unavoidable part of the evidence needed so please dont keep saying anyone is trying to blame the bank!! Without involving the bank there will be no evidence or case to take my brother to court - it is that simple. If a court finds my brother has done nothing wrong as he claims then he has nothing to worry about, the bank also will have nothing to hide.

I dont understand your train of thought maybe you think my father should just walk away and accept what has happened rather than follow police procedures. Dad has no money there is no financial help available so he has no other choice but to rely on the police and a court to get any form of justice and any possibility of claiming money back off his sons assets along with any other creditors. Alternatively he could just put everything down to a bad experience and leave his son unpunished. Believe me none of this is a walk in the park for my dad and it is taking its toll on his health.

NB: Dad has no control over how long the police take with there procedures, cases like this are not deemed high priority.

NANANINANOONOO

jamie11 wrote: »

Have you thought about taking this to a CIVIL court?

If you can get a judgment then you should be able to use the bailiff to recover as much as you can.

Also try to get a credit report on your brother to find out if he already has ccj's outstanding.

Apparantly there is too much money involved and the only way is to get a police prosecution then if the court does not make dad an award in sentencing (which is at there descression) dad can sue my brother and secure a claim on anything he has. A criminal prosecution will also safeguard the bank as any fraud will be proved, they cannot take action without dad instigating a criminal case against his son.

ValHaller

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

Apparantly there is too much money involved and the only way is to get a police prosecution then if the court does not make dad an award in sentencing (which is at there descression) dad can sue my brother and secure a claim on anything he has. A criminal prosecution will also safeguard the bank as any fraud will be proved, they cannot take action without dad instigating a criminal case against his son.

If there is equity in brother's house, father could consider taking out a Unilateral Notice on the property with the Land Registry. That will hamper any attempt to shuffle the equity in the property

NANANINANOONOO

dktreesea wrote: »

OP, what a horrible experience. I didn't want to just read and run. Good on you for supporting your poor dad so much and getting the ball rolling. Maybe your brother thought the money he was helping himself to week in week out were like "fees" he was entitled to for "managing" your Dad's money?

Even if you present the evidence to your neice and nephews, their dad will probably be telling them any money he got was with their grandfather's full consent. It isn't so much that they will believe their dad. It's more that they benefit directly from their dad (e.g. by living in the family home) rather than their granddad. This issue doesn't just have the potential to disrupt their father's world - it could massively disrupt theirs as well if, for instance, they still live in the family home.

If you think about the way this could go, i.e. your brother charged and convicted, possibly even sent to jail, then the police using the Proceeds of Crime Act to seize his assets and liquidate them in order to pay your father back, the ramifications for your brother's family are enormous. Your dad's accounts were liquidated over a long period of time; no court, imho, is going to believe your brother's claim that your dad gave him the money. Especially if they find cases where he appears to have forged your dad's signature.

Here's an example of how this could go:
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/10618692.Couple_jailed_after_stealing___62k_from_mentally_ill_relative_for_expensive_motorbikes_and_cars/

I'm sorry about the situation, but if your dad is going to see this all the way through, then he is going to have to toughen up. Your brother can solve this for himmself right now by remortgaging his own house and paying the £50k (or whatever the sum eventually turns out to be as you unearth more and more evidence) back to your dad pronto. It sounds though like he is trying to be invisible and hoping the problem will go away. He obviously expects that eventually your dad will refuse to press charges, letting him off the hook, once the reality of the awful consequences his son will suffer if he does press on come down to bear on him. As you said, he feels guilty already. Once your brother is arrested - once it goes beyond being interviewed under caution - there's no going back. His life will be changed. Even if he were eventually found innocent (which I doubt) he would still be answering "have you ever been arrested" with "yes", rather than "no" forever more.

Are you and your Dad really sure about this? I know your brother has turned out to be a scumbag, but losing a brother and a son, not to mention his whole family, over money seems drastic to me.

Dad has been made fully aware of possible consequences by the authorities and safeguarding team and has not made the decision without long and heartbreaking consideration without influence from anyone, hence the delay in progressing to arrest. He has tried to contact his son over and over and his nephews and neice also but has had no response not even regard for his wellbeing so it would appear they may be naturally divided by loyalty to their father and what they potentially may have to lose financially. Dad feels he has already lost the son he thought he had and is sadly resigned to whatever the future may hold for our family :0(

It is indeed drastic but dad has been left little choice as its seems all is lost anyway, its important to remember none of it is dads doing and is all my brothers responsibility, it his he who has destroyed his own family and ultimately his childrens lives, 50k cannot be deemed a fair fee for helping a parent do anything.