What is the most the poorest student pays in fees and the minimum grant + bursary?

jayII

Don't students look at the accommodation costs when choosing which universities to apply for? Just as you would look at housing costs when applying for jobs in a different area.

The students I know are mainly paying £4000-ish a year for pretty good rooms in decent halls. Bathrooms and kitchens are shared, but that's normal, surely?

Dunroamin

jayII wrote: »

Don't students look at the accommodation costs when choosing which universities to apply for? Just as you would look at housing costs when applying for jobs in a different area.

The students I know are mainly paying £4000-ish a year for pretty good rooms in decent halls. Bathrooms and kitchens are shared, but that's normal, surely?

I've just checked the current rates for the halls I was in when at university and they're between £70 and £80 per week. Considering that they're right on campus and they were very comfortable, that seems good value to me. The university also offers new, ensuite accommodation for £125 pw, 15 minutes walk away, which seems a ridiculous extra amount of money to pay.

If students choose to live in accommodation like that, I don't see how they can argue that they're short of money.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Dunroamin wrote: »

I've just checked the current rates for the halls I was in when at university and they're between £70 and £80 per week. Considering that they're right on campus and they were very comfortable, that seems good value to me. The university also offers new, ensuite accommodation for £125 pw, 15 minutes walk away, which seems a ridiculous extra amount of money to pay.

If students choose to live in accommodation like that, I don't see how they can argue that they're short of money.

Clearly you aren't talking about any part of London. Shall we write that off as a stupid choice? If you write that off, then you are writing off a serious chunk of the UK's Maths Science Engineering Medicine and Law courses as not accessible.

But I do I detect none of those was your degree subect?

Let's for one moment assume I am wrong about you writing off London, and that it is possible to "save" £2,000 of your maintenance loan by choosing the right accommodation. You've already argued that after accommodation is paid, it is well possible to survive on a full maintenance grant and especially with a £1,500 scholarship or bursary. So what should such a student do with the £2,000 they borrowed that they haven't spent? Would it not be sensible to repay it at the soonest opportunity?

Many student's parents have access to credit lines linked to mortgages at sometimes less than 1% (base rate trackers with the right to the same rate on considerable further borrowing - not many realise it). Would it not be sensible for their students to accept parental loans or gifts of their money borrowed at a fraction of the SFE rates until those facilities are exhausted and only then ask SFE to provide only the funding for the final year or two as needed? Would the student still receive the same grants and bursaries or do they have to borrow all that is on offer for a particular year from SFE to trigger those via the university ?

Dunroamin

I haven't written off anything, just given one specific example of a university I'm familiar with, although the situation's much the same in most universities.

I've also specifically said that students can't generally live on just the grant as that isn't what it's intended for.

As far as parents remortgaginggoes, it's generally considered better not to replace unsecured debt with secured debt but if parents are daft enough to do this, that's up to them. However I doubt that parents with a household income low enough to offer students grants and bursaries will be in a position to do this anyway.

Shelldean

:eek:Uni charging that much for rooms:eek:

I though DD uni was bad, at over 6196.50 fr 37 weeks (2013/14 pirces DD paid less as she was in halls 2 yrs ago) which is just under £167.47 per week. So a 9k uni room must be something out of this world.

DD had her own pod bathroom and her room wasn't that small tho I don't know the exact size. We moved her bed around for the duration which made it seem more spacious. She shared a kitchen area with several other rooms, I say Kitchen it was kitchen cupboards, microwave, fridge and toaster. No proper cooking equipment as she was in catered rooms.


Now this was a uni in London, so I reckon would be among the higher charging ones? I too would like to know which Uni charges so much more.

And as I said before she coped ok with her grant/loan and a tiny bursary, plus the very occasional stint at the local stadium.
She's saving more this yr and last as she is living with relatives and paying a minimal amount of rent to them.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Shelldean I would love to name and shame but it is too dangerous to start giving details as I do not wish to demoralise the youngsters by worrying them that they might get identified and singled out. As no university is anywhere near yet deciding who exactly deserves the most extra support this year and who doesn't I can say no more about exactly where these places are.

Personal data leaking on a website via what start out looking like a general unnamed case can be very damaging to those who know how to make mischief by cross referring data they possess with what I might provide here and beginning to join dots.

But I am sure you do know that much of the inner city student accommodatin linked to by university websites is actually private accommodation projects which have cosied up to unis by offering to develop spare campus land or simply take over the hassle of handling the enquiries.

In this respect I see many similarities with the ills of privatising bits of the health service which are supposed to provide a particularly special level of kindness, nurturing and care to other segments of our society to whom we are to give special respect and attention if we are not to become more dysfunctional and valueless as a nation than we are already. You know how that's gone - never mind the quality -the price has gone through the roof to satisfy private investors looking for 10+ returns in the short-term. It is very wrong and the preponderance of it has increased exponentially in the last few years (and reflected perhaps in 8.5% increases in student rents just reported here on MSE).

Dunroamin wrote:

However I doubt that parents with a household income low enough to offer students grants and bursaries will be in a position to do this anyway.

You might be right, but there is a significant proportion out there with unused credit lines for 2.9% one time payment balance transfers as well as offset mortgages in the hands of parents who are not employed and not registered as jobseekers who are economically inactive due to the economy and just eating into their massive 90s and noughties rock bottom interest credit lines secured or unsecured anyway just to live. They might be prepared to sacrifice their long term financial viability to unshackle their children from the unknowns of SFE loans for the knowns of the world of IVA and bankruptcy in the parents own name.

I would love to know if anyone has any kind of measure - I bet SFE and HMRC have an inkling.

PS Talk of what the separate parts of the SFE finance deal "are intended for" I am sure goes right over the heads of 99% of students signing up. They have enough of a time just trying to budget with trying to synchronise overall cash flow liabilities with the loan advance dates and grant instalment dates - to them it is just money coming in and apart from the grants it is all funny money at the same interest rate from SFE. Do you really think they have one bank account for accommodation and another for food and a further one for public transport (a must for all girls and vulnerable types in Inner Cities for large parts of the city at certain hours).

Which part of the funding is for public transport costs when the university is only three stops away? A lot sometimes goes on after dark between stops. None of it much thought out by SFE I imagine.

Dunroamin

To suggest that jobless parents take on extra debts just so their student children don't have to take out student loans is just about the most stupid suggestion
I've ever heard. If it were possible to have less credibility than zero, you've just achieved it.

If there were something more original to say than "I'm out", I'd say it.

NervousHomeowner

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

Shelldean I would love to name and shame but it is too dangerous to start giving details as I do not wish to demoralise the youngsters by worrying them that they might get identified and singled out. As no university is anywhere near yet deciding who exactly deserves the most extra support this year and who doesn't I can say no more about exactly where these places are.

Personal data leaking on a website via what start out looking like a general unnamed case can be very damaging to those who know how to make mischief by cross referring data they possess with what I might provide here and beginning to join dots.

But I am sure you do know that much of the inner city student accommodatin linked to by university websites is actually private accommodation projects which have cosied up to unis by offering to develop spare campus land or simply take over the hassle of handling the enquiries.

In this respect I see many similarities with the ills of privatising bits of the health service which are supposed to provide a particularly special level of kindness, nurturing and care to other segments of our society to whom we are to give special respect and attention if we are not to become more dysfunctional and valueless as a nation than we are already. You know how that's gone - never mind the quality -the price has gone through the roof to satisfy private investors looking for 10+ returns in the short-term. It is very wrong and the preponderance of it has increased exponentially in the last few years (and reflected perhaps in 8.5% increases in student rents just reported here on MSE).

You might be right, but there is a significant proportion out there with unused credit lines for 2.9% one time payment balance transfers as well as offset mortgages in the hands of parents who are not employed and not registered as jobseekers who are economically inactive due to the economy and just eating into their massive 90s and noughties rock bottom interest credit lines secured or unsecured anyway just to live. They might be prepared to sacrifice their long term financial viability to unshackle their children from the unknowns of SFE loans for the knowns of the world of IVA and bankruptcy in the parents own name.

I would love to know if anyone has any kind of measure - I bet SFE and HMRC have an inkling.

PS Talk of what the separate parts of the SFE finance deal "are intended for" I am sure goes right over the heads of 99% of students signing up. They have enough of a time just trying to budget with trying to synchronise overall cash flow liabilities with the loan advance dates and grant instalment dates - to them it is just money coming in and apart from the grants it is all funny money at the same interest rate from SFE. Do you really think they have one bank account for accommodation and another for food and a further one for public transport (a must for all girls and vulnerable types in Inner Cities for large parts of the city at certain hours).

Which part of the funding is for public transport costs when the university is only three stops away? A lot sometimes goes on after dark between stops. None of it much thought out by SFE I imagine.

Okay, I'm now really confused about what you've actually got a bee in your bonnet about.

As a student from a low income family, I would sooner not go to university than have my mum remortgage her one safe asset to pay for me to go to university when I could get a loan from SFE that, although IMO is unfair, is a much 'safer' type of loan than the sort my mum would get if she remortgaged. Furthermore, what world do you live in where you think that advocating for low income families to put themselves into debt is a good idea? Not only is that a ridiculous idea but you also seem to completely miss the point that those families may not even have things like a remortgage or low interest loans to take advantage of. It seems to me that you are just taking umbrage with SFE and don't actually care about the plight of low income students at all.

I can assure you that most students do not care about their loans. Would we prefer not to have to take out a loan at all? Of course, and I am firmly of the belief that education should be free. However, I think the fact that the maintenance grant/loan is so pitifully small is a much more pressing issue for low income students than the fact that they have to take out a loan in the first place. The loan itself doesn't stop you from attending university if you're from a LIF, because it will only affect those who are earning a living wage (Above £21k) after uni. The low amount that students get for living costs on the other hand, has a much bigger affect on low income students because it can actually affect whether or not you can afford to go to university.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Dunroamin. I have a combination of much bigger creditlines in place than you do. I can be supremely confident of this purely from the way you post. I have had them for years - unused. I am by no means unique. You do not realise this. Not your fault. You have your areas of experience and I have mine. Moneysaving expert started life extoling the virtues of being able to play around with creditlines and manipulating balance transfers when it was possible to multiple-repeat-balance-transfer very large sums (of the size suggested as annual borrowings to students) many times over during a year between different banks and each time gain interest free periods and even debt discounts. Yes you heard right. Barclays discounted debt transferred to them. I might owe £20,000 to MBNA and Barclaycard would take it over with no handling fee in thosedays and discount it by say 2% plus they would give an interest free period. I retain those same credit lines because it gives me control of my life should I meet adversity and because I am apprently extremely credit worthy. However, I am currently economically inactive because I am studying again AND I care about young members of my extended family going to university and taking on stupidly large loans that are impossible to properly bound as anything other than a 30 weight around their necks.

Got it so far?

I am big and ugly and can handle my life. That includes recognising adversity and if I so decide, I will take the bullet instead of the youngsters in my extended family. Do you think the government do not know this? How else do you think they were able to give rich people a way to repay the loans anytime they wished without considering an equal right for clever poor people? Yes - now think about it.

Why might I ever need to risk financially crippling myself? For the same reason a rich person would pay off the loans with a shrug. It is because the young people are owed an unfettered chance at life at least as good as I was once given.

You and your god may laugh, but the current student loans situation looks to me worse than some future bullet - it is more like an RPG masquerading as a marshmallow aimed at every student signing up for a loan.

I can take the hit and the worst that can happen is that I will be made bankrupt - the marshmallow goes splat and the RPG becomes an instant dud so don't expect it to fund your pension.

Wealth creation in this country has for the most recent centuries only been achieved by people who take risks and who are able to do it via legalised limited liability ventures. I am one such. I am a one man legalised limited liability venture. If I take the hit now and I do not earn my way out of it in time for judgement day on the loans, then make me bankrupt, and then watch me get up and brush myself down and smile. I shall by then have well protected the youngsters I care about from some disgracefully ill-thought out political experiment which they have the ill-fortune to be living through right now.

Now tell us please why you have never heard such as stupid thing in all your life? Is it not a perfect foil to your extremely dubious politics?

You do not have the whip hand on credibility my friend - far from it.


And yes NervousHomeowner, most students do not care about their loans. Are you surprised? Ignorance is bliss.

But take a potential Romanian undergraduate - do they care about such? Yes indeed they do. So do they sign up for an English University as is their right as an EU citizen? Maybe not just like that, they don't. Probably there are better alternatives to suit their lack of ignorance when they optimise their life chances. And then who will be best suited and prepared to compete in this world when they've completed a fully funded degree elsewhere and all our young people have as a guaranteed outcome is a loan balance with little change from the thick end of £100,000 in some cases?

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

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I have now been shown another example - a £3,000 fee waiver with £3,000 non-repayable scholarship. Funny money isn't it?

If you are a student from a Low Income Family I suggest you immediately ask for that now as a minimum.

Inequalities of the type I imagine some poor students reading this post will now contemplate versus their own meagre £3,354 maximum grant and possibly still facing a full tuition fee and possibly no extra help in some places are sickening and shameful.