What is the most the poorest student pays in fees and the minimum grant + bursary?

Dunroamin

You can hardly compare the costs of renting a self contained stuio flat to renting a room in halls of residence!

NervousHomeowner

I'm on a low income as well and was entitled to the full maintenance grant and maintenance loan. It sounds like a lot to start with but it doesn't really go very far once you get into the cost of living!

For reference, I'll get roughly £615 per month in grants and loans - This is for the whole year, not just the academic year. Previously the amount that I was paying per month for food, bills and rent was £600. However, I'm really lucky that I've just moved house to a cheaper place and my boyfriend is very kindly subsidising me so that I only now have to pay £400 per month. This leaves me £200 per month to pay for my travel, my clothes, haircuts, any supplies I need for my course (usually £50pcm at least) and anything else unexpected.

With regards to bursaries/grants - I live with my boyfriend and he is dependent on me for money which would usually mean that I'd be awarded a bursary/grant to help with this. However, because I'm under 25 and we're not married, I was not allowed to put him down as my referee and therefore we aren't eligible for the bursary.

I also applied for a further two academic excellence scholarships - one which would provide me with £1000 per year and one which would provide me with a £500 reduction in tuition fees, £500 of vouchers to use in the university shop (Very useful as I'm an art student and supplies get ridiculously expensive) and £500 paid to my bank account. Despite having excellent results that would have more than qualified me for the first scholarship, I am not eligible because my results are from two different types of qualifications (two A levels and a BTEC). The 2nd scholarship accepts the two different qualifications that I have and it is given to students who receive the full maintenance grant, so I should be eligible. That said, SFE still haven't processed my application for the maintenance grant, which means I can't be awarded the scholarship until they've done that.

I know that £654 per month sounds like a lot but it really doesn't go very far at all, especially if your circumstances differ at all from the expected norm of a student. My student travel card alone costs me £234 approx. per term and has to be paid up front, which means I have to put aside roughly £80 per month. That's a lot of money to be putting aside when you're living on £654!

And before anyone comments - I am already trying to find part time work and have been for months but people apparently aren't keen to employ students.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Dunroamin wrote:

You can hardly compare the costs of renting a self contained stuio flat to renting a room in halls of residence!

It is a room in a hall of residence. Except they don't call it a hall of residence and it is run by a private company. They call it a studio flat because it has a microwave and an all in one plastic bathroom cubicle in the corner - remember when a nice hotel room had a bowl and a jug and a washbasin? End of WW2 maybe up until the 70s perhaps and the bathroom was across the landing? Well that was then and the rooms were nicer and so was the state of the bathroom across the hall. We have moved on a bit and you at least now get a bathroom where you control your own level of cleanliness even if it is just a plastic walk-in box where the washbasin might have been after WW2. No bath of course - old hat. And the toilet is in the shower if you understand the arrangement. It gets as wet as you do with every shower - spacesaving idea you see, dirty water all disappears down a hole in the floor or down the toilet, so the bathroom actually is not even quite so good as that in a standard cross channel ferry cabin. Not sure how the plumbing is connected. Hopefully grey water and foul water are kept separate in aproper fashion until it is out of the building. How would you fancy studying for a degree from a cross channel ferry cabin ? - we wouldn't make you share ! Could you stand it for how ever many years it takes?

Now then Dunroamin, how many square metres do you have at your disposal? And what's your bathroom like ? Got a decent bed and mattress? Your own washing machine ? Nice and warm and cosy in the winter? A proper kitchen so that you be a moneysavingexpert and prepare all your food from fresh and live off - how much do you spend on the accommodation thesedays? Mortgage paid off?Well never mind that, how much do you reckon you can live off per week after the accommodation is paid?

I have a nasty feeling that the education insiders who advise the students on what budgets they should be able to survive upon may not practice what they preach, and have may never in fact have been so hard-pressed as the likes of NervousHomeowner above - now there's a real life story for you ...

Dunroamin

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

It is a room in a hall of residence. Except they don't call it a hall of residence and it is run by a private company. They call it a studio flat because it has a microwave and an all in one plastic bathroom cubicle in the corner - remember when a nice hotel room had a bowl and a jug and a washbasin? End of WW2 maybe up until the 70s perhaps and the bathroom was across the landing? Well that was then and the rooms were nicer and so was the state of the bathroom across the hall. We have moved on a bit and you at least now get a bathroom where you control your own level of cleanliness even if it is just a plastic walk-in box where the washbasin might have been after WW2. No bath of course - old hat. And the toilet is in the shower if you understand the arrangement. It gets as wet as you every shower - so the bathroom actually is not even quite so good as that in a standard cross channel ferry cabin. Would you like to study from a cross channel ferry cabin - we wouldn't make you share! Could you stand it for how ever many years it takes?

Now then Dunroamin, how many square metres do you have at your disposal? And what's your bathroom like ? Got a decent bed and mattress? Your own washing machine ? Nice and warm and cosy in the winter? A proper kitchen so that you be a moneysavingexpert and prepare all your food from fresh and live off - how much do you spend on the accommodation thesedays? Mortgage paid off?Well never mind that, how much do you reckon you can live off per week after the accommodation is paid?

I have a nasty feeling that the education insiders who advise the students on what budgets they should be able to survive upon may not practice what they preach, and have may never in fact have been so hard-pressed as the likes of NervousHomeowner above - now there's a real life story for you ...

Yawwn...

Your student years aren't and never were the time to expect the same living standards enjoyed by your parents, your friends who are working or those that you hope to enjoy after you graduate. The fact that so many students have these unrealistic expectations leads many of them to work excessive hours and run up debts.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

The fact that so many students have these unrealistic expectations leads many of them to work excessive hours and run up debts

... because the fact is Jack who is Alright feels no obligation to fund anything approaching a 21st century enlightened approach to education and living standards and believes students should know their place ? I can't believe I just read that from you Dunroamin ... why do you even inhabit this forum above all others if you don't like students and their expectations, and you think they are double dumb to try to work their way to balancing the budget ? How about you halve the necessary hours they work by doubling the National Minimum Wage ... or is it only those chameleons who have managed to cling to their jobs and pensions for decades who deserve to be paid £12 and hour and way way more ?

I said at the outset that built-in inequality was at the heart of this scheme and boy do we see it in your words if you have anything to do with it.

Dumb 'em down to the lowest standard of living, a taste of austerity will do 'em good. They're lucky even to be given loans, and we should keep 'em studying, don't give them time or money to play or funds for drowning their sorrows in a pint on a Friday night - if they can't stick it then that's tough.

When you were a lad you lived in t'cardboard box in t'middle o t'road, right?

At least you got a free university education and a liveable local authority grant I guess.

Dunroamin

I would be more than happy to fund the 10% or so of students who can benefit from a genuine university education, I'm unwilling to fund 40% of that age group on the A level+ degree courses that exist today.

The LA grant was livable because people didn't expect to run cars, have studio flats, buy into whatever technology that was available at the time, have new clothes and use social facilities priced at a level that workers can afford.

NervousHomeowner

TurnUpForTheBooks wrote: »

]
I have a nasty feeling that the education insiders who advise the students on what budgets they should be able to survive upon may not practice what they preach, and have may never in fact have been so hard-pressed as the likes of NervousHomeowner above - now there's a real life story for you ...

To be fair, I think I have a different set of priorities to your typical student and despite having very little money, I manage quite well by being frugal and my boyfriend helps me out a lot. I also know that lots of other students manage okay too but that's kind of my point. Not everyone going to uni is in the same position and I think the system is woefully unprepared for dealing with that. If you have parents who care about you or who are in a position to give you a bit of money now and again, £600 a month is a fine amount and will even afford you a bit of a social life. However, if you are not in such a fortunate position, the smallest unexpected financial situation can put students in a really bad situation.

I'm not against students slumming it a bit either and I don't think many students actually mind doing it - it's seen as the quintessential uni experience to many. I understand that I will not be living the life that I was living when I was working, and I'm really okay with that. But that said, I think there's a huge difference between roughing it a bit and not having enough money to keep yourself afloat if something unexpected happens. For a lot of students, the latter is common if they don't have family or friends to help out financially.

An extra £100 a month to the poorest of students and a fix up of the current loans/grants system to make it more accessible to people in different to the norm situations would go a long way in making a difference to thousands of students.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

Forgive me NHO for using you as an typical example, but you have very succinctly put us into the right ballpark perhaps to consider the real cost.

Of course, some students will not mind slumming it to varying degrees. I gave the Butlins example earlier either in this thread or the other. We are all different.

However we have no right, and SFE has no right and the government have no right to dictate what that slumming level shall be when students are having to borrow all the money to pay for it. They are not being given it. They are borrowing it.

Furthermore they and the universities have no right to cosy up to privateers and make it easy for them to receive inflated rents for very low standard accommodation and for it all to be sold as the norm.

Dunroamin is conveniently forgetting that students are barely receiving anything from the state. I doubt the grants are state funded - more wangled by deals with the providers. It is all smoke and mirrors accounting and in my book looks like there may even be false accounting. I told you earlier that in one of the student examples I gave, a "fee waiver" of £1,500 was part of the NSP bursary but that is for the first year only. I have seen the £9,000 invoice for the tuition fee for that case. I understand that it will not be altered. It will stand on the account until it will miraculously get satisfied.

Behind the scenes, a £1,500 credit will be applied from somewhere either immediately alongside a reduced £7,500 loan advance received from SFE by the university or SFE will still pay the university the full £9,000 but there will be an artificial loan repayment or cashback of £1,500 directly paid into the student's account at SFE from somewhere. We know not which it is, or whether perhaps it is both, or how or when of course so we cannot begin to plot its affect on incurred interest for the student. Neither do we know how it will be accounted in the second or future years.

We do know that students names are being applied to accounts containing these dubious transactions and it is all being accounted as loans sold to them with token cashback amounts finding their way back as "fee waivers", "scholarships" and "bursaries" and, to the precious few who have the gall to press for it, "financial assistance" - I have no idea what amounts might be available as "financial assistance" but I think as another cashback pot, that one is so severely tapered against the interests of most students as to be insignificant.

Please someone do tell me what interest rates at what dates I can put in my spreadsheet to show the two students.

I can see that the higher maintenance loan example of c. £6000 is paid near the middle of Sep, Jan, Apr in three almost equal instalments of £2,000 so assuming RPI + 3% is around 6.5% for 2013/14, would a capital and interest outstanding estimate at Sep 2014 be something like:
£2,000 * 1.065 = £2,130
+
£2,000 * (1.065^(8/12)) = £2,086
+
£2,000 * (1.065^(5/12)) = £2,053
_______
=£6,269

And is it typical for the £9,000 to be paid at one month later dates but at 25%:25%:50% ? And can I assume that SFE will apply the fee waiver on the last instalment each year or the first?

If it is generously deducted from the first advance then the capital and interest outstanding estimate for the tuition fee loan at the beginning of Year 2 will be something like:
(£2,250 - £1,500) * (1.065^(11/12)) = £794
+
£2,250 * (1.065^(7/12)) = £2,334
+
£4,500 * (1.065^(4/12)) = £4,595
_______
=£7,724

Or if the fee waiver is only given at the end of the year

£2,250 * (1.065^(11/12)) = £2,384
+
£2,250 * (1.065^(7/12)) = £2,334
+
(£4,500 - £1,500) * (1.065^(4/12)) = £3,064
_______
=£7,782

So assuming an optimistically level RPI + 3% during Sep 2013-Sep 2014 of 6.5%, the SFE balance outstanding including interest becomes something between £13,993 and £14,050 ?


I would guess they might charge the student via the higher method but does anyone know? It makes only £57 difference in this estimate but when interest rates go up it will become significant. For the sake of argument if RPI throughout year 2 was a level 4% and then RPI throughout year 3, RPI was a level 7%, then the total of all SFE capital and interest outstanding at the end of year 3 would differ by £220 or so between the two possible methods i.e. allowing the fee waiver against the first advance to the university each ýear or insisting it is only applied to the last (larger) advance each year.

Can anyone tell me whether I am applying the interest rates broadly correctly, please?


As a matter of interest for those on a fee waiver of £1,500 a year against an original fee of £9,000 pa, and on maximum maintenance loan, assuming level RPIs of 3.5%, 4% and 7% in each year, I calculate the total you will owe SFE at the end of year 3 will be between about £46,150 and £46,400 depending on how they apply the fee waiver each year.

If you are on maximum maintenance loan but no fee waiver then using the same RPI estimates, I think you might owe SFE around
£51,400.

Don't you just love numbers and the power of arbitrary interest rates like RPI + 3% when BBR is currently nearly 6% less than that ?

Even if RPI starts at 3.5% and does not exceed 5% in the 3 years, without a fee waiver you could still owe over £50K.

If instead of level rates whole years which is not very realistic I steadily increase RPI across the 3 years up to 10% in my spreadsheet then the amount could be £53,000 you owe SFE without a fee waiver.

And if something horrible happens in the world economy and we get 20% RPI by the end of the third year, then you might by then owe SFE £57K climbing by £13K a year (so an eye-watering £70K at end year 4 and you might not even have found a decent job - maybe we'd better not dwell on that scenario ...) ... all this even though you may have only borrowed a total of £45K in tuition and maintenance if you only did a 3 year course.

Hold on to your hat! Comments or queries on these calculations welcome and PM me if you want the spreadsheet and I will see what I can do.

D is for Dodgy and for Duress.

silvercar

Rising to the bait:

You say you know some universities with accommodation at that price - perhaps you would be in a better position to name and shame them, silvercar?

I know that Birmingham University and Bristol University both offer accommodation at that sort of price, but they also offer accommodation that is a lot cheaper than that. I know Bristol University accommodation allocation procedures ask you the price range you are looking for, so if your accommodation of choice is unavailable they will allocate you something in a similar price range.

And my other accommodation gripe was the quality issue. I am sure you also know, silvercar, of universities who are marketing substandard accommodation of a type no-one even on benefits would be permitted to live in where children were concerned - and yet still at outrageous rents.

Clearly old fashioned Hall of Residence style accommodation is not suitable for a family with children living on benefits. It was never designed to be. You really are comparing apples with pears.

These "children" we are making take enormous loans to fund substandard accommodation have barely turned eighteen yet somehow it is acceptable to say !bang!hello! - your rights as a single adult have now kicked in on your birthday - sorry about that - no the state will no longer pay for a decent roof over your head while you need it, instead you will become a hostelised adult and will be lent a large sum of funny money you will only see fleetingly before you pay to it to the university preferred hostel.

These "children" have a choice - the choice of whether they study at home or a uni away from home, whether they live in uni accommodation or private houses, even whether they go to uni at all. The state has no obligation to fund a home for them at uni - most will have a home to go to with their families in the long holidays. This may or may not be state funded, but there is no obligation for the state to fund what is effectively a second home for them.

jamesmorgan

For the average student living at a typical university, surviving on a max student loan and grant is challenging but doable. I have 3 children at Uni - the first has just finished and managed to spend within her means with no additional funding, although she did qualify for a small bursary of £500/yr. The second does some part-time work but he uses this to fund relatively expensive foreign holidays.

Having looked around at lots of uni accomodation I would say that typically it is slightly better quality than when I went to uni, but it is also more expensive. This is compensated for by the grant/loan being relatively higher than when I went to uni.

A key change this year seems to be a shift towards fee reductions for poorer students than bursaries. This is not particularly helpful for students. The astute student will know that the average student will not pay off their loan and that repayments are therefore a tax of 9% on their earnings over £21K for 35 years. Having a fee reduction may not change this so they may not save any money. If they did save any money then it will come in the shape of paying off their loan a year or two earlier so they will see the benefit in their 50's - not a time when it is particularly useful.

I actually blame this shift largely on the media who have spouted lots of misinformation about the new student loan system, and have implied that smaller fees for poorer students is a good thing (when in reality for many of them it will make zero difference).