Work For The Dole

andrewf75

Sibley wrote: »

I think all welfare should be stopped immediately.
No housing benefit, dole money, disability benefit. Nothing.

Works in Thailand where I live.

All we are breeding is a nation of lazy sluts, chavs and non working Muslim communities.

Works in Thailand?!

For you as a UK ex-pat maybe, but certainly not for the vast majority of the population.

I am in favour of getting much tougher on benefits, but the idea of removing the safety net altogether is madness and I suspect you're just looking for a reaction. No-one can seriously think that.

Loughton_Monkey

MacMickster wrote: »

A moderate viewpoint then?

I believe that the lack of welfare in Thailand causes some people to do some pretty unsavoury things in order to make sufficient money to live, and in turn attract some fairly unsavoury people to visit and live in the country.

Those in poverty also find little objection to constructing makeshift living accommodation rather than sleeping on the streets.

I'm glad that you are happy living in Thailand. I am much happier living in a country that makes some provision for the less fortunate in society, although I do think that those provisions do go too far.

Far be it from me to agree with Sibley, and to be honest, I don't. But having said that, I see where he is coming from. I have in mind the following points:

• Just sit back and reflect (relatively) recent history to see how UK became "rich". It includes slavery, exploitation, colonisation, child labour, poverty in the streets, workhouses, the Industrial revolution. A bit "unsavoury" don't you think? Do not expect the leaders of Thailand, Bangladesh, India etc. to take any lessons from UK on how to run a 'civilised' society. It is offensive in the extreme to lecture a country along the lines of "This is how we got rich. But we are telling you that you cannot do the same".
• So given that we got rich first, and then along the way became more 'civilised' and ramped up education, infrastructure, defense, medical care, pensions, welfare... to a point of up to 50% of our total wealth, we have to ask ourselves are we getting richer or poorer? At what point do we recognise we have gone too far and need to unwind the welfare state.
• Regardless of cost, it is painfully obvious that the more benefits increase, the less likely it is that members of the society will have any drive or aspirations to do better for themselves. It is human nature. Most people agree that we have gone too far. Stopping it tomorrow is impossible. But personally I believe it should be ramped down far quicker than it currently is. Starting with housing benefit that has gone well beyond a joke.
• If you had to lay serious money on, say, the annual growth rate of wealth over the next 10 years of, say, Thailand, with that of UK. Lose the bet, and you lose your entire livelihood. Which way would you bet? Then ask yourself why Thailand is likely to do better. It will be something about incentive, productivity, improving their own living standards, being competitive, and not paying themselves what they cannot afford.

grizzly1911

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

• If you had to lay serious money on, say, the annual growth rate of wealth over the next 10 years of, say, Thailand, with that of UK. Lose the bet, and you lose your entire livelihood. Which way would you bet? Then ask yourself why Thailand is likely to do better. It will be something about incentive, productivity, improving their own living standards, being competitive, and not paying themselves what they cannot afford.

If you start from a low base and have very little to lose it makes the task a lot easier.

grizzly1911

Dunroamin wrote: »

A two child family in most areas of the south east is going to be getting within a grand of that figure, which is obviously net income. If anyone in the family has any kind of a disability or if there are more children, the amount will be considerably larger.

Presumably a lot of that is accounted for by the high cost of housing that goes directly out of the recipients hands, hence my reference to the London area?

andrewf75

Obviously Thailand will grow faster than the UK in the next 10 years, but that doesn't mean its doing better than the UK, its just in a different phase of development. The UK shouldn't be looking to grow its wealth - as you say we've already done that part - we should now be looking to making a more equal society. I agree with placing limits on benefits and clamping down on those who see it as a way of life, but you need to tread very carefully otherwise you isolate whole communities even further and make the problem worse.

Dunroamin

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Presumably a lot of that is accounted for by the high cost of housing that goes directly out of the recipients hands, hence my reference to the London area?

My calculations were based on an LHA of £185 pw and applies to areas like Basingstoke and Winchester which are a considerable distance from London.In London, the annual figure would increase to nearly £35k.

grizzly1911

Dunroamin wrote: »

My calculations were based on an LHA of £185 pw and applies to areas like Basingstoke and Winchester which are a considerable distance from London.In London, the annual figure would increase to nearly £35k.

So the £25k isn't a cap then if £35k is needed?

Dunroamin

grizzly1911 wrote: »

So the £25k isn't a cap then if £35k is needed?

No, the cap remains at £25K and people have to make changes.

Moby

grizzly1911 wrote: »

If you start from a low base and have very little to lose it makes the task a lot easier.

Exactly....but of course that explanation doesn't fit the world view!:)