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Work For The Dole
Comments
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In principle this sounds great in that everyone gets a part time job and its not exploitative since they all get the NMW.
In practice I think it would be quite expensive. For example you are in your second month of unemployment and you get a letter saying what? "Report to your local hospital" perhaps. So you turn up with say 50 others and what happens next? Someone is going to have to give you some basic induction (layout of building, H&S rules, this is your supervisor), then your supervisor will have to allocate you work ( here is a wheelchair, take this patient to Oncology), tell you what to do if things go wrong, check you are trained to do the job (so the patient was hurt because you did not know the wheelchair had a brake?)
My point is that whatever the job it will take the time of permanent staff to manage these conscripts. Of course maybe we should just introduce conscription to the army?
We missed a trick: I had a friend who grew up in East Germany and everybody was taught a trade as well as academic courses. One of her friends studied medicine but was also trained as a hairdresser. The eastern bloc didn't do welfare but did do education (including vocational training) which it regarded as a better answer (and certainly cheaper - "teach a man to fish" etc.).
But not us- that would be too... low-aspirational?:o
When the palaces in Potsdam were destroyed by Allied bombing, one of the ways the GDR mopped up unemployment was by rebuilding and restoring them.There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker0 -
We missed a trick: I had a friend who grew up in East Germany and everybody was taught a trade as well as academic courses. One of her friends studied medicine but was also trained as a hairdresser. The eastern bloc didn't do welfare but did do education (including vocational training) which it regarded as a better answer (and certainly cheaper - "teach a man to fish" etc.).
But not us- that would be too... low-aspirational?:o
When the palaces in Potsdam were destroyed by Allied bombing, one of the ways the GDR mopped up unemployment was by rebuilding and restoring them.
sounds frankly insane0 -
No, I won't thanks.
II'll send you a picture of my new Ferrari, though, if you like? You can put it on your flat wall, and cheer yourself up a bit.
A bankers arrogance knows no bounds,no wonder this country is in such a state.
Banker spivs produce nothing and add no value to society,the illusion they like to proffer is rather sad.
They produce nothing create nothing apart from debt for the man in the street and have an overblown opinion of their ability.
The worst thing ever to happen to this country was the thatcher shift from the creative hand of the engineer to the greedy control of the privileged spiv class of financiers.
Worthless in productivity apart from bloated returns for themselves.
Shameful.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Take it you don't go to the Golden Arches often. (There are other drive throughs.)
Who is going to administer any system, what will it cost? What will be the actual benefit. It is not as though we have surplus jobs that we can't fill at a basic wage.
Will those chosen be reimbursed for their expenses of travelling out of immediate area, being provided with work wear, subsistence, tools etc?I was having a think about this and wondered if there would really be a problem.
Presumably 'these people' would be screened to ensure they weren't ex-offenders or child abusers and would be CRB checked like any other employee. ... My daughter worked in a nursery as part of a school careers week. It involved shadowing other employees and generally helping out without taking any real responsibility for the care of the children involved. A working for benefits scheme would likely be run the same way - baby steps - getting to work on time and dealing with basic employment structures, learning to talk to customers etc.In principle this sounds great in that everyone gets a part time job and its not exploitative since they all get the NMW.
In practice I think it would be quite expensive. For example you are in your second month of unemployment and you get a letter saying what? "Report to your local hospital" perhaps. So you turn up with say 50 others and what happens next? Someone is going to have to give you some basic induction (layout of building, H&S rules, this is your supervisor), then your supervisor will have to allocate you work ( here is a wheelchair, take this patient to Oncology), tell you what to do if things go wrong, check you are trained to do the job (so the patient was hurt because you did not know the wheelchair had a brake?)
My point is that whatever the job it will take the time of permanent staff to manage these conscripts. Of course maybe we should just introduce conscription to the army?
I agree with the above quoted posts. This would impose an additional burden on existing employers (whether public sector, private sector, or charitable sector).
Staff numbers have been cut to the bone in most workplaces and the employer is highly unlikely to have people spare who can spend much of their time administering the scheme (just think of all the DBS checks for the doubtless high turnover of people coming through the scheme), inducting and training the individuals, checking their work.
As for the work experience comment, it would risk removing the availability of work experience which many 14-15 year olds undertake now through school. Employers will be far less likely to have the capacity to take yet another person on - I've seen the preparation we do for a single work placement person per year. Remove the work experience and it potentially places the young in an even worse position than they are at present, and they're the group with the highest unemployment rates already.
I can understand the sentiment behind the original suggestion, but the practicalities are frequently overlooked in the rhetoric.0 -
Yorkie is right about the lack of capacity for running such a scheme.
The idea of providing more training to the unemployed is one that we should encourage, but only genuine training and accepting it will cost more. An army of unskilled conscripts is not going to help anyone, just give the impression of work being a punishment rather than an opportunity.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
sounds frankly insane
Almost everything I've heard about the GDR (and most of the communist world) sounds insane. I'd frankly use the word evil.
But not the vocational/science education system and the preference for work over welfare.There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker0 -
Forced labour and minimum wage are opposing ideas. If there is a mass labour available this by its very existence lowers the wage with excess supply
Either we choose to interfere with a set wage or a different direction but not both at once.
USSR had no unemployment but they had no guaranteed wage either, so people could be caught up doing nothing of use and paid very little. I believe people did starve sometimes while 'employed'
A capitalist system can result in similar, paid below a 'living wage' but its more open at least and not forced
FDR didnt solve a recession so far as I know. ww2 disrupted general government policy and also rearranged world trade, thats closer to it
If we took all unemployed they could solve every pothole in the country. Its generally a reoccurring problem, patching rather then rebuilding a road is low skill low risk work so its feasible.
They could force railways to stay open, clearing leaves or whatever. That infrastructure support is useful to society. Im not sure the idea floats, it could be funded with QE.
The other one is conscription into armies, thats more honest because no one is expecting a profit there and it wouldnt be but a country can utilise support of an army in extremes..0 -
sabretoothtigger wrote: »Forced labour and minimum wage are opposing ideas. If there is a mass labour available this by its very existence lowers the wage with excess supply
Either we choose to interfere with a set wage or a different direction but not both at once.
USSR had no unemployment but they had no guaranteed wage either, so people could be caught up doing nothing of use and paid very little. I believe people did starve sometimes while 'employed'
A capitalist system can result in similar, paid below a 'living wage' but its more open at least and not forced
FDR didnt solve a recession so far as I know. ww2 disrupted general government policy and also rearranged world trade, thats closer to it
If we took all unemployed they could solve every pothole in the country. Its generally a reoccurring problem, patching rather then rebuilding a road is low skill low risk work so its feasible.
They could force railways to stay open, clearing leaves or whatever. That infrastructure support is useful to society. Im not sure the idea floats, it could be funded with QE.
The other one is conscription into armies, thats more honest because no one is expecting a profit there and it wouldnt be but a country can utilise support of an army in extremes..
The USSR had famines, some of which can be accounted for by the bonkers ideology they had that allowed them to ignore the truths of genetics.
Income tax, housing costs and utiliy bills were very very low. Everyone had cash in the bank but nothing available to spend on.
What we all basically need seems to me :
Good care facilities for the vulnerable; - basically us when we're getting on in years.
Good secure schools with a staff to pupil ratio that will meet students needs.
Leisure facilities where people can pass time. Doesn't have to be sports.
Transport efficient enough so you don't feel you need to use the car.
Good and varied affordable food and drink
Speedy efficent medical care.
A society policed well enough so we can be secure and safe.
Higher education that's flexible, affordable and available at a distance.
Good social housing we can afford and a strong rental sector to compete with the owner-occupier sector.
Could the unemployed supply some of this? Some, definitely.
One correspondent in the papers made the interesting point that most organisations are bloated with admin staff contributing not very much to the nation's needs.
He pointed out that with our ageing population these people could be much better employed as carers for e.g the elderly. Let them keep their job titles and salaries. But just now doing a job that actually really contributes and matters for a change.
There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker0 -
This country needs tons doing to it and leaving people idle instead of getting the work done is a waste on so many levels
This sentence should be read by every MP of every party at the start of each working day.
A commitment to do something about it would almost certainly win the next election."When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson0 -
MacMickster wrote: »This sentence should be read by every MP of every party at the start of each working day.
A commitment to do something about it would almost certainly win the next election.
Don't they all usually commit to doing something about it?"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0
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