Intellectual property owners and lawful seizure of 'fake' property in the UK

halibut2209

But surely once the person has left the store, the offence is no longer in commission. It is complete and thus a police matter only.

Otherwise the security staff could follow the alleged shoplifter home and detain him there...

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

BoP Interrupts for the hard of reading

Some geyser has spent too long on the internet looking for, to them, seems to be the ultimate question based on internet chat room myths. This question being.
"My mate down the Crown and Anchor sent his wife's fake expensive watch for repair. They seized it and destroyed it."

The answer that sums it up has already been provided.

Hintza wrote: »

Sending a fake for repair is really dumb.

Wobbleades all round

Joe_Horner

halibut2209 wrote: »

But surely once the person has left the store, the offence is no longer in commission. It is complete and thus a police matter only.

Otherwise the security staff could follow the alleged shoplifter home and detain him there...

It's a bit of a fine line. The power does extend to someone you have reasonable grounds to believe has already committed an offence, but only where you also have reasonable grounds to believe the person will "make off" before a constable can make the arrest and that it's not practical for a constable to make the arrest.

So, as they leave the shop, you can detain them to prevent them making off. You could also, to a point, chase them down the street. But if you "follow them home" then, at that point, it's practical to tell the police where they are and wait for them.

Where it changes from reasonable to unreasonable would be a matter for the courts in any particular case but "just outside the shop" is a pretty safe bet

earthstorm

Now you dont even need to leave the premises to be detained, if you pass the till area and go through the alarm ( most stores have these free standing alarm detectors) then you can be detained until the police arrive.

Joe_Horner

earthstorm wrote: »

Now you dont even need to leave the premises to be detained, if you pass the till area and go through the alarm ( most stores have these free standing alarm detectors) then you can be detained until the police arrive.

Really? Interesting to know under what powers seeing as no offence has been committed at that point.

earthstorm

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Really? Interesting to know under what powers seeing as no offence has been committed at that point.

it has as most alarm system are at the doorways, but they will detain you if you go through the alarm and it goes off.

But like our local Asda store this on on the first floor, so as soon as you go past the tills and through the alarm system, which leads to the lifts and travelator then you have left the shop floor with no intention of paying for the goods.

vaio

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Really? Interesting to know under what powers seeing as no offence has been committed at that point.

It's probably secret court issued power that allows them to detain punters on suspicion, but they can't tell us as it's really really secret.

Seriously, unless there are special rules for shoplifting as opposed to normal theft I'd have thought that strictly speaking an offence is complete when the shopper is in possession of an item with the intention of not paying for it.

Proving that intent is the tricky bit and to a certain extent, subjective.

Putting a Mars bar in a pocket rather than the basket is some evidence of intent but probably not enough, putting a Mars bar in a specially designed secret shoplifters pockets is stronger, passing opportunities to pay and not doing so is further evidence, passing the final opportunity to pay and not doing so could well be the point where a court will decide that the offence had been committed.

Letting them leave the shop before challenge just makes the case easier to prove so I guess is the standing instruction to staff.

Joe_Horner

No, the offence is committed as you walk out through the door. By "premises" above I assumed that no-one would be dozy enough to think I meant "clear of the store's land including car parks". I apologise for my mistake.

For a "citizen's arrest" (technically "Arrest without warrant: other persons under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 S.24A) you must know that an (indictable) offence has been committed, or is being committed and have reasonable grounds to believe they're going to "make off" before they can be arrested by a constable.

At the point the alarm is triggered it could still be an innocent mistake - the person might stop and return to the tills. You only know it's shoplifting and only have reasonable grounds for thinking they're going to "make off" when they continue out the door.

Joe_Horner

vaio wrote: »

Seriously, unless there are special rules for shoplifting as opposed to normal theft I'd have thought that strictly speaking an offence is complete when the shopper is in possession of an item with the intention of not paying for it.

Proving that intent is the tricky bit and to a certain extent, subjective.

Putting a Mars bar in a pocket rather than the basket is some evidence of intent but probably not enough, putting a Mars bar in a specially designed secret shoplifters pockets is stronger, passing opportunities to pay and not doing so is further evidence, passing the final opportunity to pay and not doing so could well be the point where a court will decide that the offence had been committed.

Letting them leave the shop before challenge just makes the case easier to prove so I guess is the standing instruction to staff.

There are no special rules for shoplifting, and you're absolutely right that the theft is committed as soon as they pick up what they intend to steal. A policeman could lawfully arrest them at that point on suspicion of committing the offence.

It's unlikely a prosecution would be successful if they did so, but the arrest would still be lawful under the powers granted to a constable under PACE s.24(1)(c) or (d) (a person he has reasonable grounds for suspecting is about to / is committing an offence)

But the powers of everyone else are (rightly) limited to the point where the offence is established as a matter of fact - which is when they walk out with the goods and don't stop walking

ValHaller

Joe_Horner wrote: »

There are no special rules for shoplifting, and you're absolutely right that the theft is committed as soon as they pick up what they intend to steal. A policeman could lawfully arrest them at that point on suspicion of committing the offence.

It's unlikely a prosecution would be successful if they did so, but the arrest would still be lawful under the powers granted to a constable under PACE s.24(1)(c) or (d) (a person he has reasonable grounds for suspecting is about to / is committing an offence)

Ahh! Lawful to arrest someone who picks up an item of goods in a shop - because the suspicion that they intend to steal it is reasonable. And not a hint of a secret court order.