Sold brand new laptop on ebay 4 months ago - seller now requesting refund

don9999

I bought a laptop from PC World in London in late Feb 2013.
Although I opened the box to check contents, I never actually used the laptop.
Hence I put it up for sale on ebay, as a brand new laptop, and sold it on 23rd April.

Today, 125 days later, the seller has emailed me, with various complaints about the laptop, including - slow speeds & screen become blank and unusable.

They claim to have taken it to a computer repair shop and were told:

• windows 8 has major problems (?)
• As do parts of the computer (?)
• parts in the computer are not original
• laptop is made up of different parts from many manufacturers
• some parts are old

They are requesting a refund, else threatening to contact ebay, credit card company or taking me to small claims court.


I contacted ebay and they said they would do nothing since is outside 45 days.
I contacted Paypal and they said they would do nothing since is outside their period (indeed, I receive an email from paypal today stating that a claim had been raised against me today and was cancelled by them).


But I have heard tales of credit card 'chargebacks', whereby purchasers can get their credit card company recover funds from sellers.


What can I do?
I sold a 'new' laptop, accurately described, unused and delivered in pristine condition, in the original box with original documents and cables (exactly as I received it from PC World).


I am suspicious of the purchasers comments about the laptop not having 'original parts' etc... and wonder if this is part of some scam. Perhaps even by the computer repair shop that may even be scamming the purchaser.


A further complication is the purchaser is in Spain, which is where I sent it. We had extensive communication and I had to go to some effort to find an acceptable courier at an acceptable price. However this was done, and I still have evidence of delivery (although this cannot be disputed as the purchaser has confirmed they received it and have been using it.)


I'm not sure what rights the purchaser has over me.
I feel I have done everything correctly. Can they really claim a refund from me 125 days after the purchase? I am not a trade seller, just a normal person selling off un-wanted presents.


I purchased the laptop with a mixture of £100 PC World Gift Cards and the remainder on credit card. I still have a records of the use of the Gift Cards and Credit Card but no longer have the purchase receipt.

• Is it possible to get a copy receipt from PC World, if I provided the purchase date and name etc..?
• I believe laptops come with a 1 year warranty - would that be transferable to the person who bought it from me?
• Even though they are in Spain?

Any advice would be gratefully received.


Cheers,
Don

porto_bello

Just by chance, has the same buyer recently bought an identical laptop on eBay, dramatically cheaper and not working?

Have a look through their recent purchases and feedback received and left for others - you may find an explanation there.

[The intention obviously being to send you back the broken one, get a refund and and keep your new one].

Road_Hog

Okay Don, the first thing to do is to stop stressing, it's really bad for your heart. Just take a deep breath and relax.

Now, we'll go through your options. I'm going to assume that everything that you've written is the truth, not that I'm calling you a liar, but obviously if you have left out bits, my advice may not be as good as it should have been.

Don't trust paypal, call them, go through the same conversation and get a name and an email address. Then email them and tell them that you refute any situation - the email is important because you have it in writing, paypal will take no notice but the written evidence is crucial.

Then contact your credit card company and do the same, tell them you refute any chargeback and get an email address and send the conversation in writing to them and keep it.

You need to do the above and send the email and keep a copy. The buyer has no rights over you, other than to return the item, which you can have replaced if found faulty by PC World. Your main concern is paypal trying to give him is money back, so make sure you do what I've said above. Then ask him to return it under PC World guarantee (through you) and you will have it repaired.

He's obviously decide he doesn't want it anymore or found a cheaper locally source computer. Don't worry about the small claims court, just say, and when are you flying back from Spain to my local court and how much is that going to cost you?

It sounds like a scammer, ask him to send it back for repair under guarantee. The only thing you need to keep an eye out for is paypal trying to give him his money back - keep your paypal account empty.

don9999

Thanks for the suggestion.

However, the user is no longer registered on ebay (at least, not with the userid they used to purchase my laptop).

They had 114 feedback (100%) when they purchased the laptop, this increased to 115, with my positive feedback, and then they de-registered - a week after the purchase.

It smells of a scam, but I can't see what I can do about it.

They claim the laptop was faulty from day 1, but they only contact me today - 4 months from the date of purchase.

I am weary that they can just ask their credit card company to enact a chargeback, and they get the money automatically from me through paypal. I have read that I can then work with Paypal who would investigate and consider contacting the credit card company to reverse the chargeback (give me my money back); but have also read that Paypal often don't put in much effort.

So I feel helpless to prevent it...

Road_Hog

don9999 wrote: »

However, the user is no longer registered on ebay

So I feel helpless to prevent it...

Oh well, is they're narued (no longer a registered user) then they're unlikely to get a paypal refund.

You're not helpless, you just need to take preventative steps. As they're narued, I don't think you have much to worry about any more. However, if you want belt an braces, do as I said, conversation with paypal and credit card company (even if it is 30 seconds) then send an email follow up and you're covered.

don9999

Thanks road-hog for your willingness to help/advise.....

Was a little confused about your comments about 'me' contacting 'my' credit card company. I don't think it has anything to do with them, does it?

I sold the item through ebay and was paid through paypal. Hence I received the money in my paypal account which I later transferred to my connected bank account.

I assume the purchaser paid using 'their' credit card, through 'their' paypal account. Hence it is 'they' who may contact 'their' credit card company to request a chargeback. Am not entirely sure of the process (have never been involved before), but I HAVE discussed with a paypal representative today.

They confirmed that a claim had been made through them and refused (due to being beyond 45 days). However, they did confirm that a chargeback 'could' be requested by the purchaser. If I understood correctly, the process would be that 'their' credit card company would request the funds from Paypal, who would pay them, and recover the costs from 'my' paypal account (and presumably if it is empty, they would take it from my connected bank account - not sure if they are actually able to do this!)

Thereafter, the paypal guy (I have his name, but no email address) explained that I could discuss the situation with Paypal who would investigate and if they felt I had a good case, would contact the purchaser's credit card company on my behalf, and request a reversal of the chargeback. He said this could take something like 75 days!

You have also suggested that one option is for them to return the laptop to me and I would get it repaired under warranty.
However, since I no longer have the original PC World receipt, I don't see how I could get the laptop repaired (or could I rely on PC World records to find my purchase based on the credit card I used and date of purchase etc?)

In any case, I can't see my purchaser willing to return the laptop for repair. They have already said that they are not willing to pay any costs for sending the laptop back, and also that they do not want to send the laptop to me as it contains personal/confidential information. (Whether any of this is true or not, I don't know).

So am pretty sure that if they do anything, it will be to attempt to get the money back through 'their' credit card company. But can they even do this from a private seller? I can understand from a business seller, but I am not one.

(BTW......hope I am 'not' coming over as stressed. I'm really not....lol... I quite enjoy a bit of a fight. I just want to make sure I understand the legalities, and possible processed that might take place, so that I am prepared :-) )

theonlywayisup

Road_Hog wrote: »

Oh well, is they're narued (no longer a registered user) then they're unlikely to get a paypal refund.

You're not helpless, you just need to take preventative steps. As they're narued, I don't think you have much to worry about any more. However, if you want belt an braces, do as I said, conversation with paypal and credit card company (even if it is 30 seconds) then send an email follow up and you're covered.

NARU on eBay has NO bearing on whether they can use their Paypal account. Roadhog, you really need to stop giving ridiculous advice. Which credit card company do you propose the SELLER gets in touch with? For goodness sake!

Don, it is very simple, you need to ensure you complied with seller protection rules on Paypal. If you did, then ALL you need for to defend a chargeback is a proof of posting.

The ONLY chargeback the buyer can issue (if they paid by card/bank and not balance) via Paypal is for 'unauthorised transaction'. They can do this usually for up to 180 days after purchase, longer if they can show the card company/bank fraud diene of fraud.

Either way, with a proof of posting you WILL be covered by the seller protection policy.

https://cms.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_GB#11.%20Seller%20Protection%20Programme

Particularly relevant is section 11.7. But read all of 11 to ensure you fit the criteria.

don9999

Thanks theonlywayisup for your advice.

I still have one concern :-(

To my mind, logically, a purchaser has several avenues of redress if they are not happy with a purchase.

• Complain to Ebay
• Complain to paypal
• Through their credit card company
• Through small claims court

In THIS case, I am sure they can not use either of the first two. It is outside 45 days so ebay have told me they would do nothing.



I have obeyed the seller protection rules on paypal - I DO have proof of postage (online via the courier's site) but the purchaser has also emailed me saying they have received the item and have been using it. So clearly they cannon claim non-delivery, so I have no concern about that. And indeed, Paypal have already told me that 'they' would do nothing either.


However, I am weary that the purchaser may contact their credit company and claim that the goods were not as described, or satisfactory quality, or something along those lines. Although I sold a brand new, unused laptop, they have made claims about un-original, old components etc. Clearly untrue, but they could still claim that to their credit card company.


I don't see how Paypal's seller protection, protects me from a credit card company chargeback. Indeed, even the Paypal representative suggested this was a possibility, and that they could not do anything about it until 'after' it was made, and the credit card company had informed Paypal about the reason for the chargeback.


I'm assuming the battle would then begin for me to get the chargeback reversed and get my money back. It 'could' be an argument between me (saying the laptop was brand new) and the purchaser (saying the laptop was old, or something similar).


After over 800 successful ebay transactions and 100% positive feedback, I've never had to deal with this type of situation before :-(

soolin

Don9999 take note of what theonlywayisup says- forget ebay they are no longer in the frame and you need do nothing about them.

It is the possibility of a credit card chargeback that you need to be aware of and the rules may well be different in Spain for cards issued there so UK advice might not necessarily be as robust as it usually is from this forum. In the UK a user can do a chargeback on their credit card (and sometimes debit card) for a couple of reasons but only up to 180 days- so that time frame is still live.

However, you do have some protection if they do any form of chargeback as they would need to go via paypal, and to defend a claim all you need is proof of posting, not even of delivery. They can also use small claims assuming that is posssible from Spain, but again the info you have would suggest that this can be defended.

I think it unlikely that this will go further, so do nothing at all as paypal were correct in saying that your protection kicks in only if a bank chargeback is attempted. Until that happens (and buyer may well not have the same rights with a Spanish card) there is nothing to do.

don9999

OK, thanks soolin for your follow-up :-)

As I said, I am not concerned about any actions by ebay or paypal, since I have contacted both, and they have agreed that I have done everything necessary. So the only concern is a credit card chargeback (or perhaps a claim through small claims court).

I have received several emails from the purchaser in the past few days and they appear adamant that they will pursue further.

So I guess I just have to sit back and see what happens. I can do nothing else, until (and 'if') they perform a chargeback.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

With regards to the small claims court, my understanding is that your obligation as a private seller (rather than a business) is simply to provide an item that is as described.

I would advise the buyer to put their complaint in writing to you with evidence of their claims.