Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

stickyfingers85

ian41 wrote: »

stickyfingers85

I know that your original flight was due to depart on Saturday 28/01/2012 at 1125 - this was in your original post. You wanted to know whether it was delayed or cancelled.

It was delayed because it took off on Sunday, 29/01/2012 after 1500 as delayed flight CX252D i.e it operated as an additional flight to the scheduled flights** on Sunday, 29/01/2012. In summary, as far as CX252 is concerned, no flight took place on Saturday but two flights took place on Sunday - the net result is no cancellation. Put another way, all Cathay Pacific scheduled flights from LHR.HKG on that Saturday and Sunday took place but your flight was delayed until Suinday afternoon.

PS. ** I have not detailed in my posts, the other three daily CX flights from LHR>HKG which operated on both the Saturday and Sunday 28 and 29/01/2012. So in grand total, 3 CX flights left LHR on the Saturday and 5 on the Sunday.

The aircraft that you travelled on the Sunday (CX252D) was a 747-412 Reg No. B-HKV and it was spotted at 1631.15 just after take-off from LHR.

If you need more clarification, please re-read my earlier replies and then let me know what point(s) are now unclear. I will be happy to help until you are satisfied assuming you come back quickly.

Please let me know one way or another - or push the thanks button so I know you have read the post!

Thanks very much for the info, i do understand now!

So i can't claim compensation for a delayed flight under some court hearing that is happening in March?

Do you think its just worth accepting the USD50 voucher they have offered?

hurricanewyn

Hi

I'm posting on behalf of my mum, who was due to fly from Cardiff to Dublin yesterday on a flight at 20.45 (EI3299). This flight was cancelled due to fog, but other aircraft did take off albeit delayed from the airport.

She was bumped onto the 11.35am flight today (EI3293) which was delayed by approximately hour due to fog - again other flights were taking off at the same time around them.

Is she entitled to compensation under EU 261/2004 or does the fact that it was grounded due to fog mean that it's considered extraordinary circumstances?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

ian41

hurricanewyn wrote: »

Hi

I'm posting on behalf of my mum, who was due to fly from Cardiff to Dublin yesterday on a flight at 20.45 (EI3299). This flight was cancelled due to fog, but other aircraft did take off albeit delayed from the airport.

She was bumped onto the 11.35am flight today (EI3293) which was delayed by approximately hour due to fog - again other flights were taking off at the same time around them.

Is she entitled to compensation under EU 261/2004 or does the fact that it was grounded due to fog mean that it's considered extraordinary circumstances?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

It appears that throughout yesterday, several very short-haul flights using the AT7 aircraft from Dublin accumulated delays which got progressively longer and longer during the day. The reasons for these delays are unclear but a pound to a penny, by the end of the day, the crew will have run out of operating hours on the flight from DUB>CWL which only arrived at CWL at 10.13pm. As you said, it should have left CWL at 8.45pm.

The earlier CLW>DUB morning flight was 1 hour late arriving at DUB and an AT7 to/from EDI was 2 hrs 25 mins late. Now if this was the aircraft allocated for the incoming flight to DUB>CWL in the evening, then it would have arrived late.

Cause of the problem? Probably/possibly, the AT7 has greater difficulty in handling fog (if this was the problem somewhere) compared with the Airbus/Boeings which are more advanced and sophisticated. Equally, with such a short flight time, it is not a question of necessarily of fog at departure airport but at the destination.

Why not write/email Aer Lingus in your Mum's name and claim her Euro 250 for the cancellation. You might be pushing against an empty door so it will do no harm. However, it is probable that such a claim will be resisted but let's see what they say officially?

Here is a template - just insert the correct data and check the data I have inserted.


Dear Sirs

Insert here your original flight numbers, date, e-ticket number andbooking reference/PRN

Under EC Reg 261/2004 Articles 5 and 7, and following the cancellation of Flight EI 3299 on 12 March 2012, I am claiming Euro 250 compensation.

Should you wish to claim a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask youto submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out bythe ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claimextraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and Iwould like to examine the robustness of such evidence.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I mustalso draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerningpre-action conduct prior to court proceedings. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to propose a defence of extraordinary circumstances,please provide me with the full details as requested above. Alternatively,please send me a cheque for £209.80 in full settlement of the compensation due(i.e. Euro 250 at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.83920 GBP = 1 Euro on 12 March 2012. Either way, I am giving you 14 days fromtoday's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right to take anyappropriate legal action at any time to recover this sum without furthernotice.

Yours faithfully
Your Mum

Do remember even if you paid for your Mum's flight, she has to be the claimant under the EC Regs.

Hope that helps you.

ian41

stickyfingers85 wrote: »

Thanks very much for the info, i do understand now!

So i can't claim compensation for a delayed flight under some court hearing that is happening in March?

Do you think its just worth accepting the USD50 voucher they have offered?

Now that you understand that the flight was delayed, it is one issue dealt with.

I am a little concerned about your second para which probably means that I did not explain the situation to you as clearly as I thought in my earlier replies. I presume that you re-read them?

I will have another go in the next 36 hours but in the meantime, can I suggest that you read the following links which may help you understand the background.:

EC Reg 261/2004
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

Sturgeon judgment

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%2F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

hurricanewyn

Ian41 - thank you for your advice. We'll get straight onto it in the morning.

Your help is really appreciated!

albertking

Dear Mr. King,

at first my deep apologize for my late reply. Due to the fact, that I’m the only
one who is handling complaints according EU-regulation 261/2004 in our ministry
I try very hard to handle all claims as quick as possible. Daily I receive lots of
emails & phonecalls & so it doesn’t wonder, that it could happen once, that I
lose a claim out of my eyes. To work efficiently & successful I’m sure you will
understand that for me it’s very important to communicate with the airlines on
the shortest possible way. A help for us national enforcement bodies is using a
contact-list to get in touch with the customer relations dptms. of the different
airlines. Unfortunately the airline you took (Jet2) doesn’t have any emailadress
to write to & so it is very complicated to get in contact with them. Nevertheless
& aware of these facts I read the letters, which I found in the attachment you
sent to me. Specially after reading the answer from Jet2, I would like to explain
the problems we face in such cases like yours:
in the present version of the EU-regulation 261/2004 which is in force since
February 2005 a flight delay is not quantified & no financial compensation
foreseen. On the other side a judgement from ECJ about delayed flights is
existing since few years. The discrepancy in that way –the airlines relate only
to the version of the regulation 261/2004 & simply ignore the judgement of
the ECJ. The solution of these problems will be either late in 2012 or early 2013,
as soon as the EU-regulation 261/2004 will be revised in total, than all facts are
stipulated in the new version & there will be no more excuses for the airlines.
Coming back to your complaint – your flight SZG/Leeds has been delayed for
more than 4 hours & the airline is still not willing to pay a compensation as
stated in their letter. Please mind that according to the present version of the
regulation the national enforcement bodies could not force the airlines to pay
a financial compensation to a passenger. So it’s senseless to write to Jet2
anymore, asking them to pay you € 250.-. No doubt it would be much more
easier for me, if Jet2 is an Austrian airline or would have an office here in
Vienna. Dear Mr. King believe me I’m not really happy or satisfy to send
you such an answer, but in my opinion it’s more honest to tell you the truth
& to show our daily reality.
Rgds
!!!!!!!

Federal ministry of transport, innovation & technology
Civil Aviation Authority
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sehr geehrte Herren,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I wrote on 21 March 2011 to Jet 2 as per the attached letter regarding their [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]delayed flight LS384 on 19/03/2011 from Salzburg to Leeds Bradford. I [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]received their response dated 4 April also attached. Jet 2 say compensation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is not payable for delays.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I understand the position to be:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Flight Length[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]0 – 1,500km
e.g. London > Barcelona [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1,500 – 3,500km
e.g. London > Istanbul[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3,500km +
e.g. London > New York[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Delay to destination[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 2 hours[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 3 hours[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 3 hours[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 3 hours[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 4 hours[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Meals and calls [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]n/a[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Compensation amount[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]n/a [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]€250[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]€400[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]€300[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]€600[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Any postponements of longer than 5 hours will also make passengers[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eligible for a refund of the ticket (if they decide not to travel), and if[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it continues into the night, hotel rooms, and transfer to it, must also [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]be provided for poor weary customers. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore I believe that my [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]wife & I should receive € 250.- each. I complained to the CAA in England,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]but they say that my complaint should be brought to you as the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]enforcement body in the country where the incident happened.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please be so kind as to advise.[/FONT]

ian41

albertking wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]Sehr geehrte Herren,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I wrote on 21 March 2011 to Jet 2 as per the attached letter regarding their [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]delayed flight LS384 on 19/03/2011 from Salzburg to Leeds Bradford.I [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]received their response dated 4 April also attached.Jet 2 say compensation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is not payable for delays.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Any postponements of longer than 5 hours will also make passengers[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eligiblefor a refund of the ticket (if they decide not to travel), and if[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it continues intothe night, hotel rooms, and transfer to it, must also [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]be provided for poor weary customers.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore I believe that my [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]wife & I should receive €250.- each.I complained to the CAA in England,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]but they say that my complaint should be brought to you as the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]enforcement body in the country where the incident happened.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please be so kind as to advise.[/FONT]

Let me try to help by explaining the actual situation which is somewhat different to the versions given you so far.

If your flight arrival (not departure) was delayed over 3 hours, then you have a potential claim on the airline for compensation of Euro 250 pp.

However, most of the airlines flying from the UK, appealed against this decision to pay compensation for long delays (known as the Sturgeon judgment). In turn, this has had two effects. First, court actions in England & Wales to claim compensation from airlines have been stayed (i.e. prevented from proceeding) pending a ruling from the European Court of Justice. Second, and as a result of the first effect, airlines flying to/from the UK have automatically refused to consider any claim for long delays on flights to/from UK until the ECJ ruling has been handed down.

We have been waiting for a long time to hear when the ECJ hearing is due to take place. The good news is that this hearing is due to start on 20 March 2012 but before you get too excited, their decision may become known immediately, sometime later this year or next year!

When the decision is handed down (and we hope/expect that it is in favour of passengers), passengers affected by arrival delays in excess of 3 hours for intra-EU flights will be able to commence claims for compensation.

BUT under both cancellation and delay compensation, airlines can put forward (but would have to prove) a defence that the delay on any flight was caused by "extraordinary circumstances". Sometimes airlines can do this - sometimes they cannot. If they cannot, they should then pay compensation but on many occasions, claimants have to take (or threaten to take) legal action to receive their compensation.

Please understand, compensation is neither automatic nor available for every case and in the same way passengers have rights, airlines have the right to put forward a defence to a claim. However that is their only right. If you do not agree with them, you would take legal action against them. Its not difficult

So you have not lost any compensation yet. Assuming the decsion from the ECJ is positive, and your flight arrival was delayed by over 3 hours, then you will be entitled to argue your claim with Jet2 at that time.

I am so sorry that you have been waiting for good news since your flight and the CAA and Austrian authorities explained matters very badly - not for the first or last time.

Hope that helps.

ian41

stickyfingers85

ian41 wrote: »

Now that you understand that the flight was delayed, it is one issue dealt with.

I am a little concerned about your second para which probably means that I did not explain the situation to you as clearly as I thought in my earlier replies. I presume that you re-read them?

I will have another go in the next 36 hours but in the meantime, can I suggest that you read the following links which may help you understand the background.:

EC Reg 261/2004
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

Sturgeon judgment

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%252F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

It will probably be helpful for you to read my reply to AlbertKing in the preceding post.

Your case is different in two respects.

1. Your claim for delay would be Euro 600 assuming the ECJ ruling is positive and allows such claims
2. You know that there were some major technical issues on your aircraft which caused your flight to be delayed until the following afternoon. You have had confirmation from CX to this effect. (Mr King does not know the cause of his delay)

When the ECJ ruling is handed down, of course you can write to CX again using a formal letter such as the following - fill in the blanks as shown.

Dear Sirs

Insert here your original flight numbers, date, e-ticket number andbooking reference/PRN

Under EC Reg 261/2004 and the subsequent Sturgeon Judgment dated 19 November2009, and following the long delay of approximately XX hours on Flight XXXXX onXX XXXXXXXX 20XX, I am claiming Euro 600 compensation.

Should you wish to claim a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask youto submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out bythe ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like toexamine such evidence.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I mustalso draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerningpre-action conduct prior to court proceedings. If necessary, I will producecopies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to continue with a defence of extraordinarycircumstances, please provide me with full answers as requested above.Alternatively, please send me a cheque for £XXX.XX in full settlement of thecompensation due (i.e. Euro XXX at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.XXXXXGBP = 1 Euro on XX XXXXXX 20XX (insert date of flight). Either way, I am givingyou 21 days from today's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right totake any appropriate legal action at any time to recover this sum withoutfurther notice.


Yours faithfully
XXXXXXX

This letter asks CX to give you a formal explanation for the delayed flight or to pay compensation. As I told you previously, airlines are allowed to offer (and prove) a defence of extraordinary circumstances which if accepted by you, means that there would be no pay-out of compensation.

So if you now feel that you understand enough about EC Reg 261/2004 and the Sturgeon judgment - to which I have provided links for you previously - and want to commit some time, energy and perseverance to following this through, then give it a go. Often, it is necessary to consider taking legal action.

My only doubt is whether you have the time to put in the research and effort to understand fully what you are doing at the appropriate time. It's not just a question of saying I want compensation - you will need to walk the walk.

Otherwise, if you have over-riding time pressures and commitments elsewhere, just let it go and get on with your life.

That's my view.

DSA_

Hi Guys,

I recently flew out with thomson to Cancun in mexico from manchester on a package deal including accomodation. The outbound flight was OK, but the return flight was delayed for 24 hours. Me and my wife were meant to fly back on 13/03/2012 and arrive back in manchester on 14/03/2012 08.00am but instead left cancun on 14/03/2012 and arrived in Manchester on 15/03/2012 08:05am.

Thomson did put us up in a hotel for the night and gave us breakfast and lunch and were treated well so not complaining. Also the reason for the delay was that when the plane was coming into mexico there was a disruptive passenger onboard that got violent and they had to stop off in halifax, Canada to have him arrested. This caused the flight we were meant to catch being delayed and caught it 24 hours later.

Am i still able to claim as i was a day late for work. I do have travel insurance but state they only compensate £20 for each 12 hour delay. I do i claim direct with thomson for 600e?

andy advice on this would be greatly appreciated

richardw

DSA_ wrote: »

..the reason for the delay was that when the plane was coming into mexico there was a disruptive passenger onboard that got violent and they had to stop off in halifax, Canada to have him arrested...

Do you think these could be classed as 'Extraordinary Circumstances'?