Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

theboots

ian41 wrote: »

Did you mean Wed 5 October SQ 321 where Flightstats show a delay in arrival at Singapore of 667 minutes?

Sorry for the confusion, that would be the one, supposed to leave Wednesday night but left Thursday morning.

ian41 wrote: »

If you would like to continue the dialogue with SIA, let me know and I will compose a suggested reply for your perusal/editing. No pressure either way, I won't be offended so do what you want and are happy doing.

I'd like to get to the bottom of it, so would appreciate any suggestions. I had considered trying the credit card company since they would be jointly liable but suspected they'd get the brush off from SIA too.

TBH although €600pp would be useful if they'd actually compensated for the lost hotel ~£100 and a small sweetener I would have probably been happier.

Many thanks for your assistance.

ian41

theboots wrote: »

TBH although €600pp would be useful if they'd actually compensated for the lost hotel ~£100 and a small sweetener I would have probably been happier.

In my original reply to you, I mentioned EC Reg 261/2004 Article 9 Right to Care and gave you the link to the Reg. What I should have explained to you clearly is that Art 9 covers expenses incurred after (and due to) the cancellation or delay of the flight - meals, refreshments, communication costs, hotels etc unless provided by the airline i.e costs incurred subsequent to the announced flight delay/cancellation.

There is no provision under this Reg to recover or seek reimbursement for such items as lost days of your holiday, pre-booked hotels or entertainment or indeed any item booked and paid for before the cancellation or delay. So there is no basis for any claim on SIA for the cost or partial cost of your hotel in Singapore even if you had not used the room/facilities at all. Sorry if my brief explanation misled you into asking for or expecting some recovery from SIA for this.

So while you might be happy with a smaller sum, under EC Reg 261/2004 you can only claim in monetary terms for your entitlement of €600 pp plus any Article 9 expenses.

SIA's response to you was quite typical and in my draft reply I will remind them of their obligations under this Regulation - its not optional from their viewpoint, it is mandatory and has to be followed by all airlines flying from the EU. It takes precedence over their T & C's and any other small print.

Unless you tell me not to bother, I will give you a suggested draft reply within the next 2/3 days.

roverjim

Hi all! Got a bit of a dilemma with claiming back compensation for a cancelled flight at the end of August. I'm after two things really- if I've got a claim and, if so, what do I need to tell the airline to manage to claim!

I was due to fly from Brussels to Douala on 24th August with Brussels Airlines on flight SN365. I received a text at 6am on the morning of the flight (due to leave the house to go to Manchester at 7:30am) that my flight had been cancelled with no further instructions. I had to leave the house at the expected time anyway as their customer service line didn't open until 8am and as far as I knew I might need to stay in Brussels until I could travel on, but both of my flights were moved to the same times the following day (25th Aug) so it wasn't too bad.

The flight for the next day turned out to be a different flight number however; it changed from SN365 to SN1365. I have sent two e-mails and received two generic responses telling me that the flight was 'delayed' 24 hours due to unforseen circumstances. I have quoted the EU legislation with no joy.

Could anybody give me any advice? I've tried to say everything without writing an essay! I was in Cameroon to volunteer in an orphanage so it would be a great boost for them to receive the 600 Euro compensation (it was my host who was inconvenienced more than myself anyway).

Cheers,

Luke.

ian41

theboots wrote: »

Many thanks for your assistance.

In post # 1206, I said to you “The only problem (!) is that currently court claims regarding compensation for delay claims in England are currently stayed pending a ruling from the ECJ. This in turn has resulted in most airlines flying from the UK refusing to consider such claims again pending that ruling. Claims from EU countries excluding England and Wales are unaffected”.

SIA in their response did not bother to give details of the extraordinary circumstances – they repeated stuff that you knew about on 5 October. You need that information to decide whether or not you wish to pursue legal action through the Small Claims Track – once the ECJ has delivered its ruling.

I have put together a draft below which I, as a layman, would use in this situation. Its purpose is self-evident and should help to show that you are not going away. Sending this letter/email does not commit you to take any legal or other action against SIA so don’t get worried. At the very least, it should give us more information than we had before. If you wish to amend or query any point, you can PM me.

================================================
Dear Sirs

[Insert passenger names, your flight number, date, e-ticket number, booking reference and any claim reference here]

Thank you for your letter/email dated xxxxx although your reply suggests a misunderstanding on your part. For flights departing from the EU, EC Reg 261/2004 has precedence over your terms and conditions of carriage. You may recall that this Regulation was introduced to reduce the inconvenience to passengers following cancellations, long delays or denied boarding.

To reiterate, under EC Reg 261/2004 and the subsequent Sturgeon Judgment dated 19 November 2009, and following the long delay of the above flight, I am claiming compensation of Euro 600 per passenger for my wife and I.

Should you wish to continue with a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like to examine such evidence.

In addition, if you continue with that defence, you will need to demonstrate and prove to me that, under the Regulation, having established that there was a problem, you took all reasonable measures to avoid or minimise this long delay. Here I would suggest that you face at least one significant hurdle, as there were numerous other flights to Singapore by SIA and other airlines leaving on 5 October 2011 after you announced that our flight would be delayed. These included flights from London Heathrow (3), Amsterdam, Frankfurt (3), Munich and Paris CDG. Why did you not attempt to transfer us onto an alternative flight which would have enabled us to arrive in Singapore on 6 October in the afternoon? You should have taken all reasonable measures but it does not appear that you did. If I am mistaken, please provide me with full evidence of your actions at that time.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I must also draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerning pre-action conduct prior to proceedings in the County Court here in England. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to continue with a defence of extraordinary circumstances, please provide me with full answers as requested above. Alternatively, please send me a cheque for £1035.60 in full settlement of the compensation due (i.e. Euro 1200 at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.8630 GBP = 1 Euro on 5 October 2011). Either way, I am giving you 21 days from today's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right to take any appropriate action at any time to recover this sum without further notice.

Yours faithfully
XXXXXXX

ian41

roverjim wrote: »

Hi all! Got a bit of a dilemma with claiming back compensation for a cancelled flight at the end of August. I'm after two things really- if I've got a claim and, if so, what do I need to tell the airline to manage to claim!

I assume that you were booked to fly with Brussels Airlines from Manchester to Brussels to Douala under one booking reference or PRN or PNR (it is a 6-digit reference) on 24 August and that as the BRU/DLA flight was delayed until the following day, your MAN/BRU flight was also delayed until the following day.

The change of the flight number for the delayed flight to DLA the next day is not unusual. In fact the majority of flights delayed until the next day (or later!) will carry a different flight number, principally for ATC identification purposes. (In the US this is a mandatory requirement; in the Rest of The World it is a generally accepted convention) A pre-fix or suffix of 1 or A to the original flight is a way of doing this.

Did you incur any additional expenses following the notification of the delayed flight? If yes, could you tell me what they were please? I will then amend the suggested email (see below).

If there were no additional expenses, then I would suggest that you should send the following to Brussels Airlines by email (or letter). If you feel uncomfortable about mentioning the orphanage just delete the second and final paragraphs.

============================================
Dear Sirs

Insert here your original flight numbers, date, e-ticket number and booking reference

Under EC Reg 261/2004 and the subsequent Sturgeon Judgment dated 19 November 2009, and following the long delay of approximately 24 hours on Flight SN 365 on 24 August 2011, I am claiming Euro 600 compensation.

You should be aware that I will be passing this compensation in full to the orphanage in Cameroon where I assisted as a volunteer, as this was the sole purpose of my visit in August this year.

Should you wish to claim extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like to examine such evidence.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I must also draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerning pre-action conduct prior to proceedings in the County Court here in England. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to continue with a defence of extraordinary circumstances, please provide me with full answers as requested above. Alternatively, please send me a cheque for £526.26 in full settlement of the compensation due (i.e. Euro 600 at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.87710 GBP = 1 Euro on 24 August 2011). Either way, I am giving you 14 days from today's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right to take any appropriate action at any time to recover this sum without further notice.

Of course, I would prefer to see this matter settled amiably and quickly so that the orphanage in Cameroon can receive the full benefit in the near future.

Yours faithfully
XXXXXXX

There is a high chance that Brussels Airlines will wait until you take legal action against them before they will contemplate your claim but they should respond to this email and outline their defence if they are relying on extraordinary circumstances. It is rare for an airline to pay compensation claims without legal action. You need to be aware that currently court claims in England regarding compensation for delay claims are currently stayed pending a ruling from the ECJ. This in turn has resulted in most airlines flying from the UK refusing to consider such claims again pending that ruling. Claims from EU countries excluding England and Wales are unaffected.

If as I suspect, your flight from Manchester was with Brussels Airlines then I suspect again that Brussels Airlines will argue that this was in effect a flight from MAN to DLA via Brussels.

However, there is always a possibility that Brussels Airlines may play ball so send the suggested email/letter and we will review again once we have their response.

Any queries do not hesitate to post back and I will do my best to help you. And please remember to post back and tell us what happened!

Hope that gives you the direction you wanted.

fanbosun

the666devil wrote: »

I was also on that flight with thomson to manchester with my family...........Up until the problems, we had the best holiday which turned into a nightmare for me perticulary and stress for my wife.:mad::mad::mad:

This seems to be a common occurrence with Thomson and their lack of knowledge with regard to passengers rights. We were among the reported 3000 passengers from the grounded Pathos to UK flights from 16 November subjected to delays of 22 hours and upwards. We were stuck in departures having already checked in, so no baggage. In spite of repeated requests, the two young reps sent in to departures clearly knew nothing about EU legislation and what passengers were entitled to. Their cowardly managers (whom the reps refused to name), remaining outside the airport, had obviously sent them in like Christians in to the Lion’s den. They maintained there was no entitlement to food or drink or calls/email and also suggested that it might be a couple of days before we could leave Cyprus. The bulk of the pax were in the age group 50+ so this did not go down well. As the hours wore on, one young mother said she had run out money to buy refreshments for her two young children and she was told to use a credit card. Some very elderly passengers apparently with no funds were bought water by other passengers. This did not appear to move the reps at all. After midnight we were told that we would go to hotels and that food had been requested. If food was not available then we could spend up to 20 euros (but stressed no more!) on food. When asked where from, a rep announced there are loads of 24 hour eating places on the Island, something which the duty hotel manager confirmed as untrue when its 2 a.m., out of season, on the outskirts of Limasol and he also said no food had been requested anyway. We had also had a false start for the hotel when the first coach driver refused to move (striker sympathic?). We were also told a rep would be at the hotel to sort out any problems but she did not appear until next day and still denied any responsibility for bills for calls or emails (as is the entitlement). She also advised that Thomson would not be responsible for obtaining any medication that passengers had run out off but would provide the address of a doctor at the passengers own expense. Reportedly, letters would be provided to confirm our delay but none were forth coming. I eventually rang up for one and supposedly its in the post.
As the delay was due to a strike by baggage handlers, i suspect no compo will be payable . However, I think Thomsons should be fined for their exceptionally poor customer service and lack of basic knowledge regarding air travel legislation. I would be interested to know if any others of the Pathos “detainees” has successfully complained.

ian41

fanbosun wrote: »

This seems to be a common occurrence with Thomson and their lack of knowledge with regard to passengers rights............... As the delay was due to a strike by baggage handlers, i suspect no compo will be payable .

I agree with your conclusion, a claim for compensation for the delayed flight under EC Reg 261/2004 and the subsequent Sturgeon Judgment, is not going to produce positive results.


However, don’t forget that expenditure under Article 9 Right to Care of the same Reg should be claimed if you spent reasonable sums on refreshments and phone calls, emails etc. This is a right regardless of whether or not compensation is due but most airlines will expect to see receipts as evidence to back your claim.

However, I think Thomsons should be fined for their exceptionally poor customer service

I understand and agree with the sentiments you expressed but I am unsure how this could happen in reality – even if you wished to invest a large chunk of your time and money. Ultimately, dissatisfied customers vote with their feet and take their future business elsewhere but see suggestions below

and lack of basic knowledge regarding air travel legislation.

Thomsons, as a corporate entity, will know and fully understand air travel and all relevant consumer legislation – without any doubt. I suspect that Thomsons will claim that their local representatives should have handled the situation in a better way. (A cynic might suggest that Thomsons (and other airlines) inactivity saved them from giving vouchers worth (say) 20 euros to (say) 3000 passengers and will instead pay (say) 20-25 euros to perhaps 150 passengers who bother to claim.)

So what can you do?

1. Write and claim your Article 9 expenses from Thomsons

2. If you bought your package through a local ABTA travel agent, they have an arbitration process for complaints. Or contact ABTA directly

ABTA Ltd
30 Park Street
London
SE1 9EQ
Telephone: 0203 117 0500
www.abta.com

3. Local Trading Standards officers are responsible for enforcing complaints under Regulations 14 and 15 of the “Package Travel Regulations 1992”. See here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3288/contents/made

4. Free legal advice on consumer issues is available from the Community Legal Advice. Call 0845 345 4345. The CLA is open Monday-Friday 0900-2000 and Saturday 0900-1230. This information is provided without any endorsement whatsoever of this service.

5. Most travellers will have Travel Insurance and again, most but not all policies pay out a fixed sum to each policy holder for delays after 12 or 24 hours. This sum tends to be in the range of £10-£30 for each period delayed up to a maximum.

6. Finally, if enough people contact Watchdog, then they will react but this does need activity by many. Unfortunately apathy sets in after the initial upset as evidenced by the number of single posts on this forum.

Hope that this helps.

Robq_2

This is the text of a letter sent to Thomsons 3 weeks ago:

Dear Sir/Madam

Complaint and Application for Compensation Flight TOM 3761 (30/10/11)

We recently had a very frustrating and extremely costly experience with your Company and as a consequence, we understand that we are owed compensation from Thomson Holidays.
After an enjoyable week holidaying with Thomson’s at a Hotel in Protaras, Cyprus, we were due to fly home via Doncaster Airport on 30/10/11 on Flight TOM 3761.
We were advised on route to the Larnaca Airport that the flight was cancelled and we were placed on buses to be accommodated overnight in Nicosia.
Although we were provided with food and limited drinks, we incurred additional and unplanned expenditure.
We did not depart Larnaca until 18.00 on Monday 31 October (over 20 hours late).
As a consequence I was unable to start a new role with my employers (*an NHS Trust) This meant that I missed a series of crucial meetings and needed to send urgent emails to a variety of colleagues. A loss of a day’s pay or annual leave is totally unacceptable to me personally!
My wife had to miss a full day in her role as a teacher with a potential loss of earnings too!
As you are aware we are both entitled to compensation under REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004. This will be a minimum Euro 400 each. Given the distance from Larnaca to Doncaster is over 3,300 Km and the delay was over 20 hours then we would expect much more than this.
Unless we receive an offer of compensation by Friday 11th November It is our intention to pursue the complaint to CAA and to Consumer Direct. We will also send the details to BBC Watchdog Programme.
Unless an acceptable offer of compensation is received then I will place the matter in the hands of a solicitor.
As a further concern I would like to point out that the company’s failure to have an accessible email address to allow complaints of this nature to be more readily pursued appears in this age of modern communications, an attempt to discourage complaints of this nature.
Yours sincerely,
A lack of a response led to a phone call to Thomson's yesterday, after waiting 9 minutes, I managed to speak to a young person who at first told me there was a back-log of complaints, he then found my letter of complaint and proceeded to talk to me in the most condescending way, almost ridiculing my claim and indicating that Thomsons do not recognise the validity of REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004!
should I go straight to a small claims court ? or CAA or my own insurance company?

ian41

Robq wrote: »

A lack of a response led to a phone call to Thomson's yesterday, after waiting 9 minutes, I managed to speak to a young person who at first told me there was a back-log of complaints, he then found my letter of complaint and proceeded to talk to me in the most condescending way, almost ridiculing my claim and indicating that Thomsons do not recognise the validity of REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004!
should I go straight to a small claims court ? or CAA or my own insurance company?

In my view the answers are no, no and yes respectively assuming the latter can assist.

But before you press any buttons with anyone, I suggest that it is vitally important for you to establish the following basic facts:

1. Have you asked and do you know whether the flight was cancelled rather than delayed?

2. Have you asked and do you know Thomsons official explanation for the flight cancellation or delay?

3. Do you understand an "extraordinary circumstances" defence under this Regulation?

4. Have you read and do you fully understand EC Reg 261/2004 and subsequent rulings on which you wish to base your legal action? There are a huge number of posts in this thread covering a wide range of circumstances. Equally, www.flightmole.com is a specialist forum dealing with flight cancellations and delays. Both are worth reading and researching.

Again in my personal view, once you have the answers above, if it is a flight delay (rather than a cancellation), then suggest you wait for the ECJ ruling on the Sturgeon judgment vis-a-vis delays before you contemplate any legal action. Equally, the CAA will not get involved until/unless that ruling has been made.

On the other hand if the flight was cancelled (remember reps use the terms cancelled, postponed, delayed quite loosely at times and may be unaware why a flight has been delayed/cancelled) and Thomsons have been given the opportunity to explain why the flight was cancelled - and that explanation given is unlikely to provide a robust defence in court - then you could consider taking legal action but don't be in a rush. Line up all your ducks in a row first!

I am sorry to point out that there is no basis for a claim under EC Reg 261/2004 relating to loss of a days pay/holiday entitlement. However, whether this flight was delayed or cancelled, you are entitled to Article 9 Right to Care.

If you bought the package through an ABTA travel agent, you could make a complaint to them and there are various other remedies which have been touched on in the preceding post to yours.

Maybe consider these points and other replies before deciding what you are going to do next?

Caz3121

Robq wrote: »

This is the text of a letter sent to Thomsons 3 weeks ago:

Dear Sir/Madam

Complaint and Application for Compensation Flight TOM 3761 (30/10/11)

We recently had a very frustrating and extremely costly experience with your Company and as a consequence, we understand that we are owed compensation from Thomson Holidays.
After an enjoyable week holidaying with Thomson’s at a Hotel in Protaras, Cyprus, we were due to fly home via Doncaster Airport on 30/10/11 on Flight TOM 3761.
We were advised on route to the Larnaca Airport that the flight was cancelled and we were placed on buses to be accommodated overnight in Nicosia.
Although we were provided with food and limited drinks, we incurred additional and unplanned expenditure.
We did not depart Larnaca until 18.00 on Monday 31 October (over 20 hours late).
As a consequence I was unable to start a new role with my employers (*an NHS Trust) This meant that I missed a series of crucial meetings and needed to send urgent emails to a variety of colleagues. A loss of a day’s pay or annual leave is totally unacceptable to me personally!
My wife had to miss a full day in her role as a teacher with a potential loss of earnings too!
As you are aware we are both entitled to compensation under REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004. This will be a minimum Euro 400 each. Given the distance from Larnaca toDoncaster is over 3,300 Km and the delay was over 20 hours then we would expect much more than this.
Unless we receive an offer of compensation by Friday 11th November It is our intention to pursue the complaint to CAA and to Consumer Direct. We will also send the details to BBC Watchdog Programme.
Unless an acceptable offer of compensation is received then I will place the matter in the hands of a solicitor.
As a further concern I would like to point out that the company’s failure to have an accessible email address to allow complaints of this nature to be more readily pursued appears in this age of modern communications, an attempt to discourage complaints of this nature.
Yours sincerely,
A lack of a response led to a phone call to Thomson's yesterday, after waiting 9 minutes, I managed to speak to a young person who at first told me there was a back-log of complaints, he then found my letter of complaint and proceeded to talk to me in the most condescending way, almost ridiculing my claim and indicating that Thomsons do not recognise the validity of REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004!
should I go straight to a small claims court ? or CAA or my own insurance company?

You mention both a cancellation and a delay in your mail - you need to be clear whether the flight was cancelled, and potentially your new flight had a new flight number, or whether it was delayed.
If delayed you were entitled to care whilst you waited plus you can claim for the compensation but there is currently a stay on cases so it could be at least 12 month before there is a decision made
If it was cancelled then the same care is required and the compensation for delays is payable as long as the airline are unable to prove that the delay was completely outside of their control (eg weather/strikes)
If you had not been provided with overnight and meals you should have been able to claim reimbursement with receipts, what was the additional expenses you incurred and do you have receipts?
No airline will be responsible for loss of earnings, have you looked at your travel insurance to see what cover you have there?
Did they advise you what the reason for the delay.cancellation was?


sorry typed too slow and most covered above