After the Work Programme

sensibleadvice

sniggings wrote: »

I think you are missing the point.

You seem to be suggesting a well written application and CV will get you an interview, are you suggesting people lie on their CVs? of course they have to be to a standard, provided they are then employers are not stupid, they can see a padded out CV a mile off, you are either what they are looking for or not.

They may be looking for experience, a young person, a man, a woman, an old person, someone that hasn't changed jobs every 2 mntues etc etc some people no matter how they present their CV, the employer just doesn't want them, for any number of reasons.

Employers can pick and choose these days, why take a 35 year old man who has not worked in 2 years, had quite a few min wage jobs in the past etc etc when you can take on an 18 year old straight from school or a older woman that has just returned to work after bringing up a family.

A good presented CV is not the panacea you seem to be suggesting it is, you can change the paper, font etc but the person stays the same, and employers know how to see through a CV.

No, I'm saying generic cliched CVs don't stand a chance. I've also said content is important. Of course where there is not much content the individual must be looked at to see what can be done to improve content. Many don't want to hear that though as it's perceived as patronising and condescending. But you're right, a point I've made several times, a padded out CV is spotted a mile off.

That's true to some extent with every application. In that case target applications to employers and jobs that want your demographic, skills and experience.

Yes, employers can choose. But suggest to the 35 year old man that they need to look at what they can do to improve their employability and it's perceived as condescending and patronising.

I've not said it's a panacea, but a move away from generic cut and pasted CV is better. Of course you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and the sow's ear is the elephant in the room around here.

Podge52

sensibleadvice wrote: »

They're unemployed and claim there are barriers to employment that they're quite happy to specify every detail about - the state, govt, WP etc etc. Yet the very suggestion that the barriers to finding work could be more about them, their application, mindset etc they suddenly become mute, evasive, claim there no need for specifics, almost as though they're in denial....funny that.

Do you understand the difference between unhelpful and obstructive?

sensibleadvice

Podge52 wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between unhelpful and obstructive?

Do you have a point to make?

sniggings

sensibleadvice wrote: »

No, I'm saying generic cliched CVs don't stand a chance. I've also said content is important. Of course where there is not much content the individual must be looked at to see what can be done to improve content. Many don't want to hear that though as it's perceived as patronising and condescending. But you're right, a point I've made several times, a padded out CV is spotted a mile off.

That's true to some extent with every application. In that case target applications to employers and jobs that want your demographic, skills and experience.

Yes, employers can choose. But suggest to the 35 year old man that they need to look at what they can do to improve their employability and it's perceived as condescending and patronising.

I've not said it's a panacea, but a move away from generic cut and pasted CV is better. Of course you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and the sow's ear is the elephant in the room around here.

how does the 35 year old add to his CV? training would either mean signing off or doing a course that would still allow him to claim, which we all know most such courses are all but useless and the employer knows if a course or community work is only done to pad a CV, I'm not sure how much weight such things have, my guess is not much at all.

If training etc is needed, it's either a slow process, so the benefit is not seen straight away or is all but impossible because of family commitment.

which means the person is left apply for job they have little chance of getting or sanctioned for being seen as not trying.

Of course you have to change if something is not working, it's just not that easy for some.

oh and these padded CVs we talk about, most are being provided by the work programe, I got one of these and also an interview course, telling me that I should never answer a interviewer who asked for a negative about myself with a negative I should make it into a positive and such nuggets as that.

Podge52

I've not seen anybody say "the state, govt, WP etc etc." are barriers to finding employment. I've seen plenty of posts saying how unhelpful they are in supposedly helping you to find employment.

sensibleadvice

sniggings wrote: »

how does the 35 year old add to his CV? training would either mean signing off or doing a course that would still allow him to claim, which we all know most such courses are all but useless and the employer knows if a course or community work is only done to pad a CV, I'm not sure how much weight such things have, my guess is not much at all.

If training etc is needed, it's either a slow process, so the benefit is not seen straight away or is all but impossible because of family commitment.

which means the person is left apply for job they have little chance of getting or sanctioned for being seen as not trying.

Of course you have to change if something is not working, it's just not that easy for some.

oh and these padded CVs we talk about, most are being provided by the work programe, I got one of these and also an interview course, telling me that I should never answer a interviewer who asked for a negative about myself with a negative I should make it into a positive and such nuggets as that.

I didn't say it's easy but if what they're doing isn't working something has to change or they'll carry on failing. Positive mindset and determination don't impact on any of the above, cost nothing and can make a difference.

Certain questions often get asked in one form or another at interviews. That nugget is a good one to have an answer ready.

KevInChester

I think you are labouring under the misaprehension that the Work Programme is a succesful endeavour that helps and enriches the possibilities for those who are unemployed. It doesn't - though I concede there may be some edge cases where the generic advise may help.

If you want to see one of the documents used by the Work Programme (as an example) then I would be pleased to upload a copy when I get home from work.

The barriers people have:

Lack of ability - some people are just not cut out for certain roles, or have the ability but do not have the money/time/academic skill to find a job in that sector.

Medical issues - Depression, anxiety etc

My biggest barrier was the depression, anxiety and complete lack of self worth that the job centre and the work programme (to a lesser extent) made much much worse. Some people need to be treated with kindness rather than threatened.

I was treated badly from day one of my claim, having to undergo a check to see if I was habitually resident (which they messed up) - I then had to wait a further month as they hadn't uploaded my signing details. After that I was treated with utter disrespect on a near fortnightly basis. Some advisors were fine, others had a seemingly split personality. I always treat people with respect and politeness.

sensibleadvice

KevInChester wrote: »

I think you are labouring under the misaprehension that the Work Programme is a succesful endeavour that helps and enriches the possibilities for those who are unemployed. It doesn't - though I concede there may be some edge cases where the generic advise may help.

If you want to see one of the documents used by the Work Programme (as an example) then I would be pleased to upload a copy when I get home from work.

The barriers people have:

Lack of ability - some people are just not cut out for certain roles, or have the ability but do not have the money/time/academic skill to find a job in that sector.

Medical issues - Depression, anxiety etc

My biggest barrier was the depression, anxiety and complete lack of self worth that the job centre and the work programme (to a lesser extent) made much much worse. Some people need to be treated with kindness rather than threatened.

I was treated badly from day one of my claim, having to undergo a check to see if I was habitually resident (which they messed up) - I then had to wait a further month as they hadn't uploaded my signing details. After that I was treated with utter disrespect on a near fortnightly basis. Some advisors were fine, others had a seemingly split personality. I always treat people with respect and politeness.

Here's an example of similar barriers but different mindset. I'm sure many employers would consider employing someone with a positive approach like that as opposed to one with a mindset of blaming others for their shortcomings.

KevInChester

I actually found my own opportunities for development - Job Centre wanted to send me on a 'Food hygeine' course after I kept on at them for training opportunities. I ended up doing the much more valuable PTLLS course instead.

I enrolled on Literacy/Numeracy 2.

I enrolled on a Supporting Teaching and Learning 2 course and partook in work experience supporting children at a local school.

Also took and completed several qualifications with regards to safeguarding, equality and diversity.

I helped people out at the work programme, the ones that were left to their own devices to 'jobsearch' without having the requisite computer skills to even use a web browser. I supported these people and helped them to learn about computers. The galling thing was the regular staff who were paid to do this were often too busy chatting about holidays they were planning rather than doing any semblance of work.

I also managed to obtain work over the Xmas period.

I didn't need the job centre or the work programme to source these opportunities, I did it all by myself. Thankfully it paid off as I am now working in the education sector.

So I do agree with you somewhat re: mindset, but sometimes what is needed is help rather than repeatedly being made to feel worthless. A positive mindset is definitely important.

Morglin

I've never claimed JSA, never been on any course, never been unemployed when I needed to work, so no personal whinge here lol, but having worked for the DWP (in past years), I think you underestimate the frustration and stress caused by a) not bring able to find work, particularly if you have always worked, and the total futility (accepted by grass roots JCP workers and claimants alike) of these WP's - they all started thinking they were going to be quids in, and now they have realised they won't.

They havem't got the capabilities, facilities, or contacts to actually do much at all - in fact, those unemployed left alone have a higher chance of work than those sent on the courses, according to a government led enquiry!

Now, obviously, we all know a positive frame of mind moves mountains, but it's not always that simple - being skint and demoralised doesn't tend to make happy bunnies of anyone.

Sort out the 'never worked and don't want to', but let's have better schemes for those who have worked and want to work.

Lin