The case for identity cards

kwmlondon

Can someone explain how ID cards will help catch terrorists? All the ones we've had in the UK are UK citizens so what use are they? Maybe they help in notifying the bodies - ah, that'll be it. I'm so pleased.

lostinrates

kwmlondon wrote: »

Well, sir, there's bad news I'm afraid. It seems that you need a liver transplant. Normally we would be happy to put you on the waiting list, but I'm afraid that our records show that you have been consuming more than the recommended number of units of alcohol on many occasions over the past 24 years - your transactions at the supermarket have been logged. I'm sure you'll agree that the NHS isn't a blank cheque and it was your own responsibility to look after your health so you'll understand that we will only be able to offer you an hour of counselling as treatment for your illness. The introduction of ID cards has made it much easier to track people's behaviour and ensure that their insurance, health provision and entitlements are adjusted accordingly.

I don't think this would happen, yet anyway. Lets say it does. I n a country with a shortage of donor organs.

The guy in the next bed, further down the list who takes care of his body but just had bad luck gets the liver...the guy who was going to die through no fault of his own at all. I'm certainly not saying I'd want to make the choice, and I would suffer at least as much as guy one I guess, but then I'm not sure I find it that hard to take responsibility for the choices I have made that may have lead to my current health problems.

We often here people bemoaning people need to take responsibility for their debts/spending habits/childcare costs etc on this board and indeed, at every middle class ish dinner party hosted. (Where the wine flows easily usually) why should responsibility for ourselves in a country with free at point of use tax payer provided and state administrated healthcare be different?

Ideal? No of course not. Difficult for me to get heated over....yeah...sort of.

Bring the drinler's kid waiting for an organ into it, or someone late on their tax payments kid into it and I feel Very differently.

kwmlondon

lostinrates wrote: »

I don't think this would happen, yet anyway. Lets say it does. I n a country with a shortage of donor organs.

The guy in the next bed, further down the list who takes care of his body but just had bad luck gets the liver...the guy who was going to die through no fault of his own at all. I'm certainly not saying I'd want to make the choice, and I would suffer at least as much as guy one I guess, but then I'm not sure I find it that hard to take responsibility for the choices I have made that may have lead to my current health problems.

We often here people bemoaning people need to take responsibility for their debts/spending habits/childcare costs etc on this board and indeed, at every middle class ish dinner party hosted. (Where the wine flows easily usually) why should responsibility for ourselves in a country with free at point of use tax payer provided and state administrated healthcare be different?

Ideal? No of course not. Difficult for me to get heated over....yeah...sort of.

Bring the drinler's kid waiting for an organ into it, or someone late on their tax payments kid into it and I feel Very differently.

The argument is "if you've done nothing wrong, what have you to fear?" is an interesting one.

Have you been for a walk on a mountainside?

If you get stopped and have your ID card checked expect to have your insurance premium upped.

Maybe you've been to the beach?

Let's hope you are not unlucky enough to have had to use your ID card to book that hotel in Torquay - if you get skin cancer down the line it's your own fault.

The simple fact is that I don't trust any government with my personal data. They are funded and part of the institutions that are there to exploit us and ID cards will become a way of further structuring the state to the benefit of the big companies and less in favour of us - the people who actually live in it.

kwmlondon

I don't understand how anyone with any affinity for right-wing politics wants more government? Labour would never dare make the state part of every single transaction that takes place.

Terrifying.

Let's not give them any more power or authority, for goodness sake!

lostinrates

kwmlondon wrote: »

The argument is "if you've done nothing wrong, what have you to fear?" is an interesting one.

Have you been for a walk on a mountainside?

If you get stopped and have your ID card checked expect to have your insurance premium upped.

Maybe you've been to the beach?

Let's hope you are not unlucky enough to have had to use your ID card to book that hotel in Torquay - if you get skin cancer down the line it's your own fault.

The simple fact is that I don't trust any government with my personal data. They are funded and part of the institutions that are there to exploit us and ID cards will become a way of further structuring the state to the benefit of the big companies and less in favour of us - the people who actually live in it.

It's simple...I've done it all wrong so I have nothing unknown to fear....I know the worst is coming to me health wise and I'm not that worried about it. .


I'd be prett horrified if they patched me up with bits that could be used on so
Me one with a better life expectancy tbh.

grizzly1911

kabayiri wrote: »

Possibly, then, an id card system could lull us into a false sense of security.

To keep up citizen awareness, instead, the authorities should stage mock attacks...(ok, bit far you think?)

Wouldn't put anything past them.

When I first read the MOD bit on TV TEXT I thought it read as "working with their IT contractors" .

I did think it was a good way of keeping the business going to arrange for your own systems to be "infiltrated" periodically. Not too much, obviously, otherwise you might get sacked for being useless at your job.

cotleigh

kwmlondon wrote: »

Can someone explain how ID cards will help catch terrorists? All the ones we've had in the UK are UK citizens so what use are they? Maybe they help in notifying the bodies - ah, that'll be it. I'm so pleased.

Very good point. When you are dealing with UK citizens, with every legal right to be here, AND who intend to kill themselves and therefore aren't worried about evading capture, compulsory ID cards are as much use as a chocolate teapot!

Perhaps the ID cards will be able to detect the thoughts of the cardholder, and transmit these to GCHQ for investigation?

Of course, if the terrorists wear tin foil hats, they won't work properly.

kabayiri

Anyone who questions how information power can be used, and how ID cards can help glue all this information together need only look at this forum.

In a recent thread, a well known housing bull mined information somebody had posted to invalidate their thread.

It's like being cross examined in court.

Right now, I have access to the data behind several hundred people on a public programme. You guys wouldn't mind if I send some key details it to a fellow contractor who works for the big 4 supermarkets would you? Spending habits, spending times, complaints raised, bad debtors, it would all generate some interesting matches no doubt.

Hey, but you've got nothing to hide right? That's some weak justification.

ID cards would be around for decades, possibly dozens of parties in power. How can you trust a group of people you don't even know to look after the key to your id.

Slippery slope.

lostinrates

kabayiri wrote: »

Anyone who questions how information power can be used, and how ID cards can help glue all this information together need only look at this forum.

In a recent thread, a well known housing bull mined information somebody had posted to invalidate their thread.

It's like being cross examined in court.

Right now, I have access to the data behind several hundred people on a public programme. You guys wouldn't mind if I send some key details it to a fellow contractor who works for the big 4 supermarkets would you? Spending habits, spending times, complaints raised, bad debtors, it would all generate some interesting matches no doubt.

Hey, but you've got nothing to hide right? That's some weak justification.

ID cards would be around for decades, possibly dozens of parties in power. How can you trust a group of people you don't even know to look after the key to your id.

Slippery slope.

My feeling is....it's all there already For most of us, here, medical records, tax records, CCTV, Facebook, loyalty cards etcetc, of my family were one of those who were on the news international potential list....it wasn't really a concern....it was a mild surprise, they thought it was probably only the 'government' and employers listening in....( in fact news international were not i don't think).

It's not that I defend I'd cards, I couldn't give a monkeys, I just find it a bit irrational the way people react to them but happily partake in the rest of society and the myriad of ways in which information can be tracked, gleaned and stored.

I do understand the argument that whether we are regular is not really interesting now, but might be if its taxable, but if we get any where near that situation then its probably not voluntarily and if its not going to be hard to find for a large percentage of people.

Besides which, re rapidly head towards a society where most of this is probably searchable for large percentage of society by the powersthat be on face book.


Thankfully, we see that some other countries where I'd cards are mandatory have as many 'freedoms ' as we do, I am guessing that some without ID are more oppressed?

grizzly1911

lostinrates wrote: »

My feeling is....it's all there already For most of us, here, medical records, tax records, CCTV, Facebook, loyalty cards etcetc, of my family were one of those who were on the news international potential list....it wasn't really a concern....it was a mild surprise, they thought it was probably only the 'government' and employers listening in....( in fact news international were not i don't think).

It's not that I defend I'd cards, I couldn't give a monkeys, I just find it a bit irrational the way people react to them but happily partake in the rest of society and the myriad of ways in which information can be tracked, gleaned and stored.

I do understand the argument that whether we are regular is not really interesting now, but might be if its taxable, but if we get any where near that situation then its probably not voluntarily and if its not going to be hard to find for a large percentage of people.

Besides which, re rapidly head towards a society where most of this is probably searchable for large percentage of society by the powersthat be on face book.


Thankfully, we see that some other countries where I'd cards are mandatory have as many 'freedoms ' as we do, I am guessing that some without ID are more oppressed?

I personally don't want one and don't see what value it would add to me as an individual. I don't want to carry any more junk in my wallet.As you say most key information is already logged an available.

The one thing I do have against it is the black hole called cost. As previously expressed the costs would just spiral.

£70 to renew a passport for instance - renew, not new or change. How do they justify that. £20 to renew a driving license, not new or change.

If an ID card cost £5 lasted for ever and I could scrap the passport and driving license you might gain my interest.