Official MSE Economy 7 Guide discussion

Bella56

puuupi wrote: »

Hi! I live with my 5 year old in 2 bed flat. I'm on Economy 7 with Scottish Power (Online Discounted Energy October 2013 v2 no standing charge). We live in West sussex. There are 3 old storage heaters in the flat - 2 small in bedrooms and one big in corridor. No heating in living room, so during winer we're using portable heater (afternoons and mornings). I'm paying £102 a month (for short time it was £69) and during last 12 months we used 9535 kWh. Just want to hear an opinion is it a lot or normal... as £102 sounds a lot for me. Washing machine is on during the day as to use it at night I'd have to get up very early or go to bed late and also because of safety (recently my sisters washing machine went on fire). We are home from midday, so all cooking, cleaning done during the day.

That sounds very high to me. We are in almost identical situation, with Scottish Power but have a storage heater in living room but only use it during the very coldest weather, like snow. We pay between £35-45/month. But we don't use the bedroom heaters at all.

Our annual is 4400 kWH.

Richie-from-the-Boro

restinproportion,

A good and thoughtful appraisal of an E10 system in a building with a SAP rating I assume towards the 80's, getting a B/A in an EPC is pretty good on an electric [fuel used for space and water heating] system. I can assume most of that is the result of good, or in fact better than good insulation in a building designed 20 years ago and fitted as a PartL dwelling. E10 is, as everyone here knows impossible to get any decent tariff with. No [relatively] (1) users no (2) competition and no one prepared to (3) supply the tariff means all E10 users are in the same boat.

justin1972uk

Before I'd had experience of storage heating, I'd mistakenly assumed that they'd store ELECTRICITY during the cheap rate at night... You know, like charging-up a car battery via the mains electric.

It's ridiculous that they're designed to store HEAT. As I stated earlier, NO amount of knob twiddling or combination of adjusting the input & output made a blind bit of distance. I was lucky if they were tepid by the time I came home from work in the evening.

I'm not a physicist, but I'm certain you'd need some kind of a vacuum to store actual HEAT... Well, roasting bricks overnight, inside flimsy conductive metal casing seems to serve the electricity suppliers' interests - not the consumers' interests.

I'm lucky that I'm not retired, or housebound (as a carer, or through illness). My advice is spend as little time as possible in your own home during the day, and buy convector heaters (with inbuilt thermostats) for use when you are at home in the evenings.

John_Pierpoint

restinproportion wrote: »

I have had to remove some of the insulation from the loft where the builders had just dumped masses and masses.

Useful posting.

You are living in something similar to a terraced bungalow if you are on the top floor and possibly helping to heat your neighbours to the side and below.

The insulation in the loft these days is expected to be 10 inches to a foot deep (In old money) You are expected to install a "loft leg" floor should you want to use "your" loft for storage (is it really the ground landlord's loft?).

EG:

http://www.building-supplies-online.co.uk/loft-legs-stilts-flooring-insulation-spacer-175mm-12-pack-63013-p.asp

lstar337

justin1972uk wrote: »

Before I'd had experience of storage heating, I'd mistakenly assumed that they'd store ELECTRICITY during the cheap rate at night... You know, like charging-up a car battery via the mains electric.

That would be a terrible system. Battery charging is hugely inefficient, and batteries wear out very quickly.

justin1972uk wrote: »

It's ridiculous that they're designed to store HEAT.

Far from it. It is the best way to store the energy required for the next day. Just because you don't understand how to store energy, doesn't mean it's ridiculous.

justin1972uk wrote: »

As I stated earlier, NO amount of knob twiddling or combination of adjusting the input & output made a blind bit of distance. I was lucky if they were tepid by the time I came home from work in the evening.

Then they are probably undersized for your space, or your space is leaking heat like a sieve.

Twiddling will make no difference. Learn how to use them, and set them up correctly!

justin1972uk wrote: »

I'm not a physicist

Clearly.

justin1972uk wrote: »

but I'm certain you'd need some kind of a vacuum to store actual HEAT... Well, roasting bricks overnight, inside flimsy conductive metal casing seems to serve the electricity suppliers' interests - not the consumers' interests.

To store heat with almost no loss, maybe. But these heaters are designed to radiate a certain amount of heat to keep the room temperature up. What is the point of a heater that stores all its heat permanently inside?

justin1972uk wrote: »

My advice is spend as little time as possible in your own home during the day, and buy convector heaters (with inbuilt thermostats) for use when you are at home in the evenings.

Your advice is awful, and I hope nobody follows it.

Storage heaters on E7 are the cheapest form of electrical heating available. Convector's are only going to make your bills go through the roof.

lstar337

puuupi wrote: »

I'm renting the flat and my landlady is not happy to change anything till it breaks...It took several long conversations to convince her to do wall insulation (and it was free). It's really cold and damp in here if heating is off in winter Last year we didn't put the hall one on and that £102 is without it. It sounds a lot for me, because the place I lived before had 2 storage heaters and my bills were £60 a month maximum. I was even thinking to pay for gas heating installation myself (all my neighbours have gas heating), but takes time to save...

Start looking for somewhere else to live. In my opinion, a flat without a heater in the main living space is not fit for living in.

Tell your landlord that you are seeking advice from CAB and your local authority on the legality of letting a flat without an adequate heating system.

Dont' pay to upgrade the flat which belongs to a landlord who doesn't care enough to help you one bit.

Richie-from-the-Boro

justin1972uk wrote: »

I don't see what the amount of deposit I paid, has to do with anything... In any case, I'd never had experience of coping with Economy 7 heating, so this wasn't an issue when signing the contract. I hadn't realised it was so terrible.

And I had every right to approach my landlord, as regards my removing the storage heaters, as I'm not bound to a private rental contact; it's social housing - not via the local council, but a Housing Association.

As with any social housing, you can make holes in walls and remodel to some degree, so long as you have permission beforehand.

The storage heaters aren't part of the property's structure, although they are very firmly affixed to the walls. They're not as much of a permanent fixture as gas central heating radiators (with their plumbing) would be. Each has one wire going to a mains switch into the plaster of the walls. It wouldn't be a huge undertaking to seal off these wires and plaster over.

The storage heaters seem more like electrical appliances than an actual inherent heating system - albeit ugly useless permanently on-show electrical appliances...

I intend to buy this property in a few years' time (as is my right as a tenant of social housing), and when I do, I'll rip out all the storage heaters and wall-mount manually operated convector heaters.

- you have little comprehension about E7 as a heating system
- you have little comprehension about how E7 is wired and metered
- your have little comprehension of, or wilfully ignore social housing rental agreements


The fact that you don't like E7 night store does not mean you can destroy property you do not own, your wilful misinterpretation of what you can do to your social rental dwelling could render you homeless if you were ever to carry out your re-modelling without their written permission and a re-issued / modified rental agreement. Can I assume when you asked in advance of the work your housing association said yes please go ahead, you can rip out our space & water heating system ?

You lied to your electricity supply company, pretending you owned the property and were renovating it the engineer had to 'rip out the fuse for the storage heaters, pocketing it' to protect you "seal off these wires and plaster over - crazy crazy" from yourself. Why your HA did not follow up and [after the fact] make you return it to its original spec I've no idea.

Purchase of the property from the HA would be a convenient and opportune workaround for the HA and avoid litigation. Hopefully if you decide not to buy it before you embark for pastures new the HA will insist you pay in full to have it reinstated before you leave, otherwise the next poor unsuspecting social housing tenant will be offered a PartL home with no heating system and no choice of access to cheap rate electricity, either that of the other tenants collectively will have to pay to reinstate the space and water heating system you ripped out without I assume permission.

There's plenty of dosh floating around for new installs particularly for gas / wet systems and HA's have undreamed of fast access that .. .. Joe public does not. You would have done better to have worked with, instead of against, your housing association.

Offering advice and suggesting such actions here is not a good idea, god forbid anyone reading your posts should take the actions you did without written agreement from their landlord.

Richie-from-the-Boro

justin1972uk wrote: »

i moved into a one-bedroomed house in march this year, with storage heaters and an electric boiler - absolutely no gas supply whatsoever. It was jarring, after having had gas central heating and a gas combi-boiler for the ten years prior at my old flat.

I soon realised that the storage heaters were useless: Boiling hot in the morning as i left for work, and stone cold by the time i got home every night. And yes, i downloaded instruction manuals from the net, as to how best set the controls on the things. No amount of knob-twiddling gave the desired effect (that being heat when i came home from work).

I decided to buy cheap free-standing fan-heaters & convector heaters, and rid myself of the storage heating.

My energy supplier, edf energy, told me that they couldn't bill me on a single-rate tariff, so long as i had a two-rate meter. I was aware that e.on allow you to add together day & night reads, without any need for a meter exchange - so i'm unsure why other electricity suppliers can't offer the same service. But i'm happy with edf at the moment, so didn't want to swap supplier.

I did have to lie to edf though, before they'd agree to exchange the meter... I told them i was renovating the property and would be fitting gas central heating. :cool:

When the meter engineer arrived with the new single-rate meter, he was reticent to fit it. I practically had to beg him on my doorstep. He asked if i had any other form of heating system in my home, and when i said not, he replied, "i'll have to ring me gaffer, mate."

luckily, he couldn't get through to his "gaffer" and fitted the meter - but not before he asked to look at my fuse-box and ripped out the fuse for the storage heaters, pocketing it. It was really odd behaviour. I'd already turned-off the storage heaters at their power points on the walls, weeks beforehand. They're now covered up behind furniture, screens, etc. - i asked my landlord if i could rip them out entirely, but they wouldn't allow me to.

I have an electric shower, so i never turn the electric water boiler on either. I have a cheap asda smart price kettle in a bedside cabinet. I boil it to have a shave in the morning, before showering. I hide the kettle again, once i'm dressed, in case i have guests.

when i wash dishes, i just boil the kettle in the kitchen. I never use more than a kettle & a half of boiling water. I live alone, so there's never many dishes really.

Yes, i have to wash my hands with cold water after going to the loo, but i use anti-bacterial hand soap-gel, and i've not died of scurvy yet.

As for the heating now, it's fine. I use one dimplex convector heater in my living room, when i'm home. My bedroom is open-plan, overlooking the living room on a balcony, so the heater heats the entire house really.

I usually leave the thermostat set at the iii mark (which appears to be halfway), and i can hear it click off-and-on when in use. It's honestly off more than on. I've left the output setting at 1kwh since i bought it in april (although 2kwh and 3kwh are available) and it's more than warm enough.

I have a dimplex fan heater in my bedroom, for nights when i'm not downstairs at all. I've hardly had to switch this on at all.

I believe that the convector heater (set at 1kwh output) would use one unit of electricity every hour, if constantly on. But because of the thermostat, it isn't even constantly on.

I'm using around £50 a month electricity now, which is comparable to the £60 a month duel-fuel i used at my old flat.

All the conventional wisdom out there, states that using standalone heaters (instead of an actual heating system) is more costly.... Take a look at this webpage for instance: http://www.cse.org.uk/advice/advice-and-support/room-heaters

well, i personally haven't found this to be true.

To reiterate:

I live alone;
i boil kettles to shave in the morning, and wash dishes in the evening;
i have an electric shower, and never put the boiler on to take a bath;
the house is empty between 09:00 till 18:00 most days;
my main source of heat is a convector heater, with the output set at 1kwh and the thermostat never turned higher than halfway.

If you're a similar single person, living alone and out at work most days, i can't stress enough how useless economy 7 heating is.

P.s. This is the convector heater i have in my living room:
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/product/partnumber/4151955.htm

dup ..................................

puuupi

lstar337 wrote: »

Start looking for somewhere else to live. In my opinion, a flat without a heater in the main living space is not fit for living in.

I will as soon as I find landlord who agrees to take part time working tenant with small child (not that easy nowadays)... Till then will have to learn to live with what I have and hope winter won't be very cold this year.

Ginger_Nut

I am on E7 and I have storage heaters this is my problem I have 2 heaters that can't be controlled they are either on or off and if on they will kick out heat 24/7 I'm living in a 2 up 2 down house build around 1900 (according to my neighbor) The heaters in the bed rooms are the only ones on a timer which I don't use I use my electric blanket
Last year I got a bill from British Gas for £300 and its only me and 2 cats living here I am electricity only and to keep my bill down I only have 1 heater on in the front room I find it cheaper to run my plug in heater
BG keep putting my bill up last time they wanted £123 odd a month at the current mo I'm un employed so money is tight and they want me to pay that ... yeah right and leave my self with next to nothing, I'm paying £65.00 a month as it is I'm locked in to a tariff until November so unless I want to pay a £30 exit fee
Ok so this year I'm laying up with jumpers and jackets and snuggling down under a blanket before I put on my heating I'm trying to get to November to keep my cost down
So the problem is as I said 2 heaters that throw out 24/7 I have looked n my Dad has looked but no timer so how on earth am I meant to cope with that? and only use it at night when its cheaper?? I can't change the meter as i'm in rental (im still waiting for my raising damp to be sorted and I reported it over a year ago)
any help or suggestions would be nice to hear thxs