The infighting over Europe starts

Moby

Nigel Lawson's article in the Times is significant because it basically says that Cameron's stance on Europe and a referendum is a sham! Lawson begs the question as in which world does Cameron think that the right of the party and the UKIP dissenters will ever be happy with whatever opt outs he is able to negotiate. It ain't going to happen posh boy Dave! The German's and the French are hardly going to say to you....we realise you have a little problem in good old blighty with that man Farage....so we'll oil the wheels for you with a few choice 'opt out's' you can sell to the little Englanders....and that way you can stay in the club and share in the best bits of it and we'll all still be jolly good friends:o.....and will UKIP and the tory right accept this 'pick and mix' sham in any event....I don't think so....It will be like feeding a crocodile!
Its a load of bollox...., Lawson knows it, David Davis knows it and Nigel Farage knows it. You are either in the club Davy boy or you are out....which is it? Are you more interested in the future direction of the country or avoiding splits within your own party? Whose interests are you going to put first? Is the momentum in the tory party now finally moving towards the exit door completely?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Moby wrote: »

Is the momentum in the tory party now finally moving towards the exit door completely?

The exit door of government perhaps.... For another generation.

This has been the most disappointing Conservative leadership really... So much wasted opportunity and incompetence, that's now descending into infighting and distraction with non-issues like EU membership.

They should tackle the real issues instead of pandering to the right and trying to blame everything on Labour and Europe, and alienating the centrist swing voters they'll need to get re-elected.

wotsthat

Moby wrote: »

Are you more interested in the future direction of the country or avoiding splits within your own party? Whose interests are you going to put first? Is the momentum in the tory party now finally moving towards the exit door completely?

In those terms it's hardly something that is unique to the conservatives - most politicians seem amenable to the idea of swapping principles for votes.

However, I agree with what you're saying - Lawson blundering into this argument is so obviously about party politics rather than the 'right thing to do'.

Lawson has said that, financially, the costs and disadvantages of leaving would be massively outweighed by the benefits. If he provides some workings to back up that statement I'll accept he's adding to the EU debate otherwise he's just reacting to the UKIP success like a headless chicken.

He's an odd combination of dinosaur and lightweight.

antrobus

I would just like to point out that Cameron is not the first PM in history to have adopted the plan of, (a) 'renegotiating' the terms of the UK's membership of the EU, before (b) holding a referendum on the UK's continued membership of the EU.

Well it worked last time around.

N1AK

Moby wrote: »

Lawson begs the question as in which world does Cameron think that the right of the party and the UKIP dissenters will ever be happy with whatever opt outs he is able to negotiate.

The government is never going to persuade the most rabidly europhobic elements of the population that staying in the EU is a good idea. If you think they expect that, or are trying to persuade them, then you're naive.

There are far more people who are dubious about Europe but who have no idealogical issue against it. Given better economic conditions and a more favourable balance of power these voters would be far less inclined to vote for a party founded on leaving the EU.

What wanna-be political commentators like yourself need to consider is that if the Tory party swings right to protect itself from the likes of UKIP then they risk losing a considerable block of voters to whichever party claims the centre-ground in their absense.

What DC knows, and it is a shame for the party that more backbenchers don't accept it, is that the anti-gay marriage, anti-green, anti-european demographic is shrinking and getting older. The conservatives may be able to get a moderate vote boost by chasing it now but will make itself even less appealing to younger and more moderate voters by doing so.

Moby wrote: »

It ain't going to happen posh boy Dave!

Are you 5 years old? Cliched 'toff' gags in a subject unrelated to background would lead one to assume so.

antrobus

N1AK wrote: »

....., is that the anti-gay marriage, anti-green, anti-european demographic is shrinking and getting older. ...

I'd point out the following;

(1) Back in 1975 the country voted 67-33 to remain in the EU (or EEC as it was called at the time). More recently, opinion polls appear to suggest that the public are now of a different opinion, so it seems that the 'anti-european demographic' has in fact, expanded.

(2) Given that there is expected to be a 50% increase in people aged 65 by 2030 (i.e. we have an ageing population) having policies that appeal to older people might not be a bad idea for a political party

(3) "UKIP support is not primarily driven by attitudes to Europe"
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/6715

N1AK

antrobus wrote: »

I'd point out the following;

(1) Back in 1975 the country voted 67-33 to remain in the EU (or EEC as it was called at the time). More recently, opinion polls appear to suggest that the public are now of a different opinion, so it seems that the 'anti-european demographic' has in fact, expanded.

(2) Given that there is expected to be a 50% increase in people aged 65 by 2030 (i.e. we have an ageing population) having policies that appeal to older people might not be a bad idea for a political party

(3) "UKIP support is not primarily driven by attitudes to Europe"
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/6715

All fair points antrobus. However I am not suggesting that the conservatives should target an age group but should instead be aware that the 'traditional' views they are being asked to return to are overwhelming the views of a couple of generations that are aging and thus they should consider the views of the following generations very carefully.

Comparing the '75 vote to a theorectical referendum today is difficult if you want any meaningful answers. I would expect that the EU is currently less popular the the EEC as it was back then but they are very different beasts. You also need to account for the fact that the '75 elections included a huge number of voters who had been through the 2nd world war and a united Europe still had avoiding a repeat as a key aim; sadly many of those veterans and their partners are no longer with us.

Lastly, UKIP does have support for issues outside of just its position on Europe. I am yet to see any evidence that people are voting on it based on a considered appraisal of their policies. Their position on most issues appears to be whatever is popular regardless of how viable it is or how much damage doing it would cause.

Going4TheDream

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The exit door of government perhaps.... For another generation.

This has been the most disappointing Conservative leadership really... So much wasted opportunity and incompetence, that's now descending into infighting and distraction with non-issues like EU membership.

They should tackle the real issues instead of pandering to the right and trying to blame everything on Labour and Europe, and alienating the centrist swing voters they'll need to get re-elected.

As much as I agree they have been poor getting into bed with the Lib Dems really hasnt helped. Whether however the 'Eu membership as a 'non issue' is a matter of opinion, and UKIP's overwhelming success has shown that to a vast proportion of those who voted perhaps consider it could be

The problem Hamish you are doing exactly what 'Dave' is doing - and that is discounting the opinion of everyone who doesnt agree with yours?

mcfisco

This has been the most disappointing Conservative leadership really... So much wasted opportunity and incompetence, that's now descending into infighting and distraction with non-issues like EU membership.

Has there been a Tory government since we've been in the EU that hasn't been torn apart by this non-issue?

pqrdef

So what will Cameron's referendum position be? Will he go out and argue the case for staying in? What if he loses?

Or will he just say, oh do what you like, it's all the same to me?

Does he think that leaving is an option worth considering, and if not, why is he having a referendum on it?

Governments hold referendums to get an extra approval for a major change, which they recommend. They don't hold referendums to get approval for the status quo, just to give the voters a chance to force on them a policy they can't recommend. It's absurd.

When the voters say No, the government will have to resign. Then there'll be an election in which all major parties will be in favour of ignoring the referendum and staying in.

So UKIP wins an outright majority? Probably not. The No voters won't go that far.

So we get another hung Parliament, in which nobody will link with UKIP so some sort of deal will have to be cobbled up to support an anti-referendum-result government. Is this getting silly enough yet?

Marine_life

The biggest mistake is allowing the public any input on issues which -with all due respect - they have absolutely no clue about.