Getting Chip & Signature Cards vice Chip & PIN

Sooler

Just say you don't know your PIN ....

http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/business/card_payments/faqs.html#knowpin

"What do I do if a customer doesn't know their PIN?
In the UK, the banking industry has put in place special arrangements to help shop staff continue to accept a customer's signature whilst customers are getting used to shopping with their PIN. This means that if a cardholder cannot remember the PIN on their credit or debit card, shop staff will be prompted by the chip and PIN terminal to do a quick online check with the card issuer. The card issuer will in most cases authorise that a signature can be accepted. This ensures that there is no transfer of fraud liability and it remains with the card issuer.

When customers no longer require this service it might be removed, but this will be in response to customer needs and as yet there is no date set. However, it is in the interests of everyone that we move to chip and PIN as quickly as possible so its full security benefits can be realised. For this reason shop staff and card companies will actively encourage customers to use PIN as quickly as possible.'"

James

Sooler,

Your views are welcome and it's obviously your choice to opt for Chip & PIN. The aim of this string however is to establish which card issuers are being honest and transparent when it comes to informing consumers about Chip & Signature cards. For example do they have the mechanism in place to issue Chip & Sigature Cards? Problems consumers have experienced in obtaining Chip & Signature cards etc etc.

From a cardholders perspective and NOT the card industries you have to ask the questions.

Is it safer to use a PIN than a signature?

Is there a liability shift onto the cardholder?

What is considered as being judged negligent with a PIN?

Why are PIN pads not secure? (Built to a specific standard)

We already know that Chipped cards can be cloned, the chip disabled and the cloned card used at an ATM with a valid PIN - If you don't have a PIN then this cannot happen.

We also know that retailers have an option to implement Chip & PIN or not. Why are consumers not being told they have an option to reject a PIN?

We also know that Chip & PIN is NOT being rolled-out world-wide.

What we don't know is why the card industry isn't volunteering this informaiton.

No problems with Chips, but consumers should know they have a choice on whether to have a PIN or not.

Therefore let's look forward to reading submissions from those cardholders who've opted for Chip & Signature.

James

“Sandra Quinn, of the Association for Payment Clearing Services, said the alternatives to chip and pin had been well publicised.”

Nobody has told MBNA, I called 0800 092 7292 today, quoting 31BORJSX and asked about their 12.9% APR card stating that I couldn’t manage a PIN and didn’t want one:
I spoke with a very helpful, but ill informed lady called Jade, her reply:

“All European card issuers are issuing Chip & PIN cards, but shops will allow you to swipe.”

I gave her a clue and asked if she could tell me about Chip & Signature Cards, realising she had no idea, or information available, which wasn’t her fault she asked her supervisor, a Mr. Andy Hessey.

Her Reply: My supervisor said, “There is no such thing as Chip & Signature Cards.”

Mr.Hessey eventually spoke with me and said he’d never heard of Chip & Signature Cards but he would email his people and get back to me.

The call centre staff were very helpful and the misinformation is not their fault but the industries.

Anyone else had a similar experience?

Lets get some consumer action going – ask your card issuer to provide information on Chip & Signature and post your results here.

Many will be grateful including:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/03/11/dt1101.xml

James

I said I didn't want a PIN, couldn't remember seldom used numbers, didn't want to use the same PIN for two or more cards and was worried about personal safety. At first this card issuer said I had to be 'disabled,' and changed their tune when I asked if they had the right to enquire if I was disabled or not:

Here's their reply:

After further confirmation on our procedures for your request I am pleased to confirm that you do not have to disclose any of your disabilities or difficulties.

Once you have applied for the card, you can simply just request a chip and signature card, with no explanation of why required.

Hope this posting is helps a few readers. If anyone wishes the name of the card issuer drop me an email.

Altarf

James wrote:

At first this card issuer said I had to be 'disabled,' and changed their tune when I asked if they had the right to enquire if I was disabled or not.

The banks and card companies would be bonkers to get into an argument with a customer about if the customer 'deserves' a C&S card. They would not want the bad publicity that would result if they made the wrong decision.

The problem will be getting past the front line staff who do not apply company policy (for whatever reason) and make up the rules as they go along.

James

I asked Barclays in my local branch for advice and availability of Chip & Signature Cards (they were bamboozeled), but they asked me to write to Debit Card Services. Here follows the gist of their reply:

A reply from Barclays:

“If a customer requests not to have the Chip & PIN we are able to issue a card that will not carry this facility. There are three choices that the customer may have and this would of course be at the choice of the customer as each individual has their own needs. The three choices are:

No PIN facility.
A Pin for Cash Machine withdrawals only. ( Can be used with a signature in a shop).
A PIN for Point of Sale transactions only.

This is applicable to Debit cards only. I was assured that if I applied for a BarclayCard (credit card) that obtaining a Chip & Signature card would be ‘no problem.’

Barclay went on to say, “we do not promote these opt-out facilities as we believe the way forward is the Chip and PIN method of payment. However, that said, should a customer ask for their card to be taken out of the Chip and PIN method of payment, the member of staff should explain the downfalls of not having Chip and PIN especially if the customer has no disability that makes it impossible/difficult to use a PIN.

Debit Card Services were very good, but I wonder why the information has filtered down to Branch level? I also wonder why card issuers are failing to comply with the Banking Code in as much as they are not making information about their products readily available?

HELP: Anyone out there being misled over the availability of Chip & Signature Cards?

Rafter

James,

I fail to see how Barclays failure to train thousands of branch staff about chip and signature availability is a potential breach of the Banking code!

If you were a branch cashier earning 12k a year and being bombarded every day with product updates, regulation, rules etc would you think it reasonable that a customer with a specific detailed request might have to be referred to an expert within Debit Card Services as you have obviously found out.

Although you have clearly articulated views about Chip and Pin security and liability transfer, there are many others, including myself with the opposing view.

I find it slightly odd these days when I am asked for my signature still and how insecure it is, particularly with no signature check.

I know if my card is lost or stolen it is going to become less and less useful to thieves.

If someone overlooks my PIN and then robs me, I can be fairly sure they will be captured on CCTV in store and have a better chance of being caught.

If my card details are skimmed by a device at an ATM I know that the chip is encrypted so as the ATM's become fully chip enabled my card will be useless there too.

I know that card fraud is costing the banks £100's of millions of pounds a year. As a bank customer that must mean higher charges and lower interest rates on savings for me.

I'm careful with my cards, statements and never write my pin number down. Why should I pay therefore for people who are always losing their cards, are even carrying out fraud themselves etc etc.

A random 4 digit number can be tough for some people to remember. Remembering a pattern on a keypad or remembering two bits of key information, such as your house number or birth year and combining them is much easier and 99.9% of the population should be able to do this.

My understanding is that Pin bypass will be turned off at the start of next year. So if you have a chip and pin card and the retailer has a chip and pin terminal, you will not be able to request a signature instead. (unless you have a cheque and signature card or American Express, which haven't joined chip and pin yet)

R

James

Rafter,

Thanks for your reply, your views are welcome. You are opting for PINs with your chipped cards and this is your choice. Others are not so well informed or may have been misled by card issuers or had the same experiences as myself when trying to ascertain how to get hold of Chip & Signature only cards hence the reason for submitting this topic.

I presume you haven’t read: Chip & Signature needed by millions:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/03/11/dt1101.xml

I’ve been told by call centres and banks that Chip & PIN is compulsory for ALL, retailers are insisting on it, government have made it a legal requirement etc etc so you can see my concern.

You maybe misinformed over your card being cloned. The London Programme, (ITV London) in March of this year had banking experts and others acknowledging that the chip on a chipped card can be disabled and that cards magstrip cloned and used with a valid PIN at any Cash Machine. The programme showed the reporters Chipped card being cloned onto a blank card, the chip disabled and that blank card being used to withdraw cash.

Even if the PIN bypass is switched off in shops sometime in the near future, this wont effect cash points. You may still have your chipped card cloned at an ATM or in a shop and then used at any cash point. How can you be sure the CCTV camera isn’t zooming in on you entering your PIN?

Chip & Signature or Chip & PIN is personal choice; it’s just that consumers are not aware of this.

I look forward to reading of what others have been told about Chip & Signature cards or their experiences of obtaining one of these cards.

James

DesG

James wrote:

I look forward to reading of what others have been told about Chip & Signature cards or their experiences of obtaining one of these cards.

Hi James,


An update

Rang Cahoot, and although they couldn't be more helpful and friendly, they had no idea what a Chip and Sig card was, and insisted that Cahoot only issues C&P cards. Even talking to a friendly line manager didn't procure a result.

They are checking into it, but I'll not hold my breath

Cheers, Des.

DesG

MBNA, now they are a shower.

The CS rep that I spoke to insisted there was no such thing.

He advised me that if I didn't want a chip and pin card, the alternative was to cancel my account.

I asked to speak to his line manager, who insisted that it was law that all cards had to be C&P, 15 minutes later he got fed up and said he would get the relevant department to contact me.

I had to be firm, and I had to use James line above regarding their rights to inquire if I was disabled or not.

I'll let you know if I get contacted!

Cahoot, couldn't be more helpful, but insist that they do not offer Chip&Sig/Pin Suppressed cards at the moment. They are still looking into it. I have put a query into APACS about the lack of an alternative to C&P by Cahoot.


I'll report back on any findings.

Cheers, Des.