storage heaters/electric central heating or gas?

Cardew

ACEELECLTD wrote: »

Hello Cardew,
when we had our last discussion I thought that you may actually have a point about what you said. I went away and gained some more experience from actually installing various systems and then talking to the people as to how they found the system.

Lets have a grown up, serious response please

If you care to read some posts I made earlier, I am on record as saying that electrical heating, even non-storage electrical heating, makes sense for very small, well insulated properties with, say, a young working couple.

In fact I posted a link to a Daily telegraph article that said similar. The advantage being twofold, low installation costs and virtually zero maintenance.

However we now have all these firms(like yours) jumping on the bandwagon and claiming(or rather implying) that systems(like Kalirel) have some way of producing heat cheaper than other forms of electrical heating, or have some 'magical' properties.

To add insult to injury they charge the earth for the installation of what are effectively electrical radiators filled with a 'substance'.

Rather than repeat the well rehearsed arguments. I am stating unequivocally that none of these systems produce any more heat(for the same cost) than an oil filled radiator you can buy for £30 or so.

Now if you want to argue the merits of your systems, show that statement is incorrect or concede I am correct.

As you well know I have never, now or in the past, been involved with any commercial organisation selling any product - let alone electrical heating.

And of course IMO storage heating makes far more sense for the majority of people than non-storage electrical heating.

P.S.
After careful consideration years ago I bought a Betamax tape recorder. Determined not to make the same mistake I bought a Toshiba HD-DVD player!!!!
The difference was that I knew both decisions were a gamble. With electrical heating systems I don't have to gamble - and nor does anyone else

ACEELECLTD

Hello Nick74, (I like your tongue in cheek style)
regarding Dyson we used their excellent warranty system so had all or repairs done for free (and when the engineer turned up he replaced some scratched / worn parts as well) when we were out of warranty we were charged I believe around £30.00 for them to fix it. This was several years ago now and we just purchased a new Dyson DC07 for £137.00 from a local retailer.(I have no connection to Dyson)
I will, (and I think is is important to everyone that they adopt the same attitude), only comment on in the first place, items that I have personal experience of.
Occasionally I may repeat information I have received, seen, read in Forums or downloaded but I ALWAYS check it out for my self and try to ensure that I state this to be the case.
On that matter, hello Cardew I know I have not read all your 4935 posts, I really like what you do on here but I feel that sometimes it is too easy to pick on little snippets and use them as the basis for your whole argument and omit the positive aspects to the detriment of other forum users.
I will not refer to ' That heating system brand' again as it is detrimental to the whole post as it can seem that I am pushing that brand. I am not, I just did lots of research and this seemed to tick the boxes for me. In recognition of the sense that you made with the play on words Energy Efficient Heating I now always refer to it as Energy SAVING heating or Energy saving efficient heating.
All electric systems are 100% efficient in converting electric energy to heat energy (except fan heaters if you were being picky) lets now start to cut through and address the claims.
To stop claims of people pushing their products lets adopt Modern electric energy saving heating as a generic for the rest of our discussion however based on my original point above I may refer to some aspects of 'that brands' functionality that back up my argument.
These types of heating fall in to 2 camps, individual point of use heating and whole house heating.
First point: They are expensive to buy
Well the Manufacturers RRP for a market leading Storage heater XLs24N £298.00 exc VAT night rate or E10(and a modern top of the range electric energy saving heater dayrate or E10[£299.00 exc VAT] are as you can see about the same. For the same functionallity and flexibility you would probably have to directly compare with Duoheat using night and dayrate or E10 [£315.49 Ex VAT] but to be exactly accurate the Calidou range dayrate or E10(but with all the additional add ons) it is now actually cheaper [£380.36 + £41.43 receiver + £83.38 transmitter exc VAT]
Wow, now I can see that by lumping all brands in together it does appear that some are really expensive in my honest opinion !!!!
The actual exact comparison with a storage heater would be the manual controlled version (dayrate or E10) but now it is £186.00 exc VAT.
remember however that we are talking about products that can be used individually but are also designed for whole house central heating
A word of warning here for consumers is that hopefully when you do your research be vary wary if the seller does not publish the prices for anyone to read (I think it was one of your concerns Cardew)
To minimise long posts lets address that first point please.
Questions or queries please

ACEELECLTD

How do you add quotes anyone please

Cardew

ACEELECLTD wrote: »

How do you add quotes anyone please

You firstly have to click quote on a previous post or go advanced.

There is a box to the left of the # that looks like a page of writing.

Clicking that produces this

You can 'cut' a quotation and 'paste it inside the

ACEELECLTD

Cardew wrote: »

You firstly have to click quote on a previous post or go advanced.

You can 'cut' a quotation and 'paste it inside the

Many thanks for that Cardew... i can now have a go at getting to the point quickly and answering specific points queries, making easier reading (hopefully)

bryanb

I read earlier on this thread of "a requirement" to have gas central heating checked annually. I have no knowledge of such a requirement with respect to a private house. Can anyone substantiate such a requirement/regulation, or is it merely a recommendation?

ACEELECLTD

bryanb wrote: »

I read earlier on this thread of "a requirement" to have gas central heating checked annually. I have no knowledge of such a requirement with respect to a private house. Can anyone substantiate such a requirement/regulation, or is it merely a recommendation?

Hello BryanB

As far as I am aware there are no legal requirements for servicing the heating system in domestic properties.

That said the most important questions to really tackle this are
1) how old is the system and when was it installed
2) Does it appear to be running correctly at the moment (no banging or strange noises)
3) When was it last serviced
4) Does your insurance cover you if it broke down and you could not prove you have maintained

I would always recommend that something that has the potential to be unsafe is checked out ASAP but in relation to question 1 above.... If you do decide to get it serviced or safety checked the price drops in the Summer months and parts seem to be more freely available

Cardew

ACEELECLTD wrote: »

.All electric systems are 100% efficient in converting electric energy to heat energy

That is really the most important point and IMO is the fundemental basis on which any discussion on the merits of electical heating should be based.

I am more than happy to discuss the subject further as long as that crucial point underscores any discussion, as I am certain that will be the case with the other posters on here who have some technical knowledge.

A word of warning here for consumers is that hopefully when you do your research be vary wary if the seller does not publish the prices for anyone to read (I think it was one of your concerns Cardew)

Here we are 100% in agreement!

In recognition of the sense that you made with the play on words Energy Efficient Heating I now always refer to it as Energy SAVING heating or Energy saving efficient heating.

Here we are are 100% in disagreement.

That is just marketing 'spin'. It is just electrical heating! It is no more "Energy efficient" or "energy saving" than my Granny's now famous 1/2/3 bar electric fire or any other form of electrical heating - see your quote at the beginning of this post.

The first thing I want to establish is the cost of running any electrical heating system on a daytime tariff(i.e. not Economy 7)

The average household in UK uses 20,500 kWh gas pa. Given gas boilers are between 60% and 95% efficient, the useful output is approx 12,300kWh to 19,500kWh. So taking an average figure this is approx 16,000kWh.

Now the cost of 16,000kWh of electricity @ 10p/kWh is £1,600 to produce heating and hot water; plus of course the 'normal' electricity bill for lighting appliances etc.

So let us be very clear that the figure of £1,600 is a ball park figure for heating an average house. No amount of advertising blurb along the lines of "it costs xx pence to warm a room to yy degrees C" can alter that fundemental fact.

Would you agree that is a reasonable ball park figure? - if not what would you consider reasonable?

From the information I have gleaned, to fit the Kalirel type of radiators in an average 3 bed semi with 8 radiators, and associated electrical wiring/controls will cost? £3,000??

Reasonable? or what would you think?

Cardew

bryanb wrote: »

I read earlier on this thread of "a requirement" to have gas central heating checked annually. I have no knowledge of such a requirement with respect to a private house. Can anyone substantiate such a requirement/regulation, or is it merely a recommendation?

It is only a mandatory requirement if your property is rented.

ACEELECLTD

Cardew wrote: »

Here we are are 100% in disagreement.

That is just marketing 'spin'. It is just electrical heating! It is no more "Energy efficient" or "energy saving" than my Granny's now famous 1/2/3 bar electric fire or any other form of electrical heating

Hi Cardew,

The statement above is misleading because we are not comparing 'like for like'
8no 1/2/3Kw bar fires does not become a professionally installed Central Heating system for someone requiring a Central Heating System.

It is like me arguing that Saab-Scania are ripping me off charging £150,000 for a lorry to transport goods across the country when a local Farmer can Purchase 2 Shire Horses and a flat back trailer for £3000.00 which will do the job just as well and about 8 sacks of carrots

lets look at comparable heating systems to start with and think about pro's and cons