storage heaters/electric central heating or gas?

Cardew

jazzmann wrote: »

Cardew, whilst I appreciate you are a Chartered Electrical Engineer, have you actually used Electrowarm or Electrorad radiators during the winter months, or is your knowledge just theory?

Also, in your post of 4/12/07 you say that Electrowarm are oil filled. But they're not. So I guess your knowledge and research isn't as thorough as it might be.

What central heating are you currently using?

Welcome to the Forum – I think!!

Firstly as you have just joined the forum, would you please declare an interest; would it be fair to assume you work for Electrowarm? It would be interesting to know in what capacity – presumably as a salesman?

I, and no doubt others, will then be happy to discuss the merits and demerits of your(?) system.

Secondly. I suggest you are taking the wrong approach in attacking my knowledge and contribution to this thread. The only theory that needs to be considered is in the simple laws of Physics; although I can understand that it would be convenient for you to dismiss those laws.

I will make just one statement that is absolutely fundamental to any discussion on this subject. Unless you agree it is correct, or explain why it is incorrect, we will go over exactly the same ground as we covered with Electorad. The statement:

Regardless of the medium that fills a radiator, be it water, oil or “unique Chamotte fire-clay energy cells “
for a given input of electrical energy, the total heat ouput will be exactly the same!

Lastly I wonder why you would want to know what heating system I use? I am not trying to sell my system(s)!

For the record I have a non-condensing gas boiler in my house, a gas combi(again non-condensing) in a cottage and an Air Source Heat Pump(ASHP) providing warm air(and A/C)in another property. The ASHP is a very efficient electrical heating system, several times more so than Electrowarm; let me know if you want any more information about that system!

jazzmann

Cardew, thank you for the welcome - I think!


I am trying to find independent advice on electrical central heating, but this is difficult as there seems to be no sensible input from people who have actually used Electrowarm or Electrorad (just two brand names I have come across, no other reason for mentioning them). I’m not interested in wet electric radiators.


You assume incorrectly, I do not work for Electrowarm. I am not in sales. I work in an office, and, before you presume again, not in an office of a company connected with heating products. In fact not connected with a company that makes or sells any product.


It was a genuine question when I asked if you have ever used Electrowarm or Electrorad during the winter months because that would mean your comments were based on practical knowledge rather than just theory. And I was not attacking your theory, all I did was ask a genuine question and point out an error that you made in your posting of 4/12/07. I cannot understand why you say that I was attacking your knowledge and contribution. I’m sorry to have upset you on that.


Some of us who aren’t electrical engineers are still capable of doing our own research (and not just trawling through forums) and that is why I know that Electrowarm are not oil filled (re the error in your post of 4/12/07). Did you assume that because I mentioned your error I must work for Electrowarm?


If you are willing to say, I would still like to know whether you have used Electrorad or Electrowarm during the winter months. There is so much waffle on the various forums and good practical knowledge seems hard to find.


Thanks and apologies again for upsetting you.

jazzmann

Electrorad wrote: »

Cardew,
If you would like to send me a message via our website with either your e.mail address or snail mail address I will provide the test data report from the test centre so you can see for yourself the ability of this product.
I think you will find that it will soon be endorsed by all the powers that be in the energy/heating establishment.
BRE have studied the test results and agree that it deserves further investigation by them to establish if a better SAP rating should be awarded due to the potential energy savings.
Please tell me you respect the findings of the experts at BRE?


To others,
All customer testimonials are genuine and original copies available on request.

Please try and open your minds to the possibility that there is a new storage heating technology available. Read the info available and make up your own minds.

Can I ask if you use Electrorad in your own home?

Thanks

espresso

jazzmann wrote: »

Can I ask if you use Electrorad in your own home?

Thanks

Would you believe him if he said that he did?

:rolleyes:

jazzmann

espresso wrote: »

Would you believe him if he said that he did?

:rolleyes:

Well, let's wait and see if he or she replies to the question.

That's if he or she hasn't been frightened off.

Cardew

Jazzman,
Sorry - I obviously made the wrong assumption about you working for the firm.

In my defence there have been several contributers like Electrorad who come onto this forum simply to sell their goods by making the most outrageous claims. It was the implication that 'theory' was not as relevant as 'practical experience' that gave me the impression that you were a salesman.

To answer your question, no I obviously would not buy or use a non-storage electrical system; although having lived in Germany for quite a while I have actually seen this type of radiator.

There are a whole mass of electrical systems being marketed by various 'get rich quick' firms using terms that are simply designed to confuse the non-technical. The example I quoted above of radiators with "unique Chamotte fire-clay energy cells" implies that they have some special properties that give energy from those cells.

As I have stated repeatedly, all electrical heating is 100% efficient. So quite literally your granny's 1/2/3 bar fire produces exactly the same amount of heat as these systems costing £thousands.

The only difference is the manner they produce the heat - quickly with no residual heat, or slowly with more residual heat.

Most of these systems work on the principle of oil filled radiators - they might retain heat longer than oil, but will take longer to heat up - the bottom line is that for a given amount of electricity used, they will produce exactly the same amount of heat.

As regards what you state is my error in the 4/12/07 post, I actually said:

Kalirel/Electrowarm radiators are just like oil filled radiators(costing £20/£30 each) and produce no more heat for a given input. Their websites are IMO a disgrace in that they use all the buzz words like 'eco' and 'green' and are totally misleading.

That is exactly what I meant to say - they are just like oil filled radiators. i.e. they are radiators that are filled with a medium that retains heat.

Lastly, asking for unbiased opinions on almost anything akin to these systems will rarely get you objective answers. There is something in our psyche that hates admitting we bought something that was a mistake and/or some simply people delude themselves. e.g. I bought a solar panel or a Windsave turbine and halved my heating bill!! cos I used to pay £80 a month and it is now £40.

I am sorry to 'bang on' about this subject but on a money saving site it makes me angry to see people promoting systems, that will cost £thousands more than necessary.

espresso

jazzmann wrote: »

Well, let's wait and see if he or she replies to the question.

That's if he or she hasn't been frightened off.

I would guess that Electrorad has realised that they are flogging a dead horse on this forum, hence the no show since the 13th.

:rotfl:

jazzmann

Cardew wrote: »

These water filled CH systems like Kalirel/Electrowarm etc are simply radiators filled with a fluid and produce no more heat for 1kWh input than any other electrical heater, including granny's old electric one bar fire.

Kalirel/Electrowarm radiators are just like oil filled radiators(costing £20/£30 each)

Cardew, okay, you said Electrowarm were water/fluid filled and just like oil-filled radiators ... but they're not filled with a fluid are they? their website says

" Internal energy storage elements each with own embedded heating element"

Are these storage elements not up to much?

What about WIBO - another German make - are they any better?

I'm also going to take a look at Dimplex to see if they have something similar to but better than Electrowarm/Rad.

Thanks for the input and anything you might know about Dimplex and WIBO.

john1

Re storage Heaters (My story for what is worth)

I personally have used storage heaters for the last 43 years. During this time I have never had one failure out of 23 different units installed in 4 homes. So maintenance costs have been zero. Installation cost minimal as I’m also an electrician.

We are on heatwise tariff (ecomomy 10) from Powergen running up to 9 heaters, 27kW
(only 6 switched on currently) in a detached 135m² single story bungalow. This has a “cold” exterior wall floor ceiling envelope area of 383m². The walls and roof are fully insulated and is double glazing throughout. Our family home is occupied 24hrs so we need constant heating and hot water.

Currently all the rooms have individual air temperature in excess of 18°C with the living room area around 21/23°. Using the storage heaters together with the internal building structure mass, sustains an even internal 24 hr temperature. i.e. there is little or no peak and troughs in room temperature changes throughout the day / night periods.

During the cold snap pre Christmas with outside temperatures down to -7° at night the inside ambient remained fairly steady around the same as now

We have a mixture of storage heaters, 5 manually operated circa 1990 and four 1996 “auto set and forget”. These 1996 models have two temperature sensors and respond to room as well as core setting and use electricity as required to maintain room temperature settings.

We have no other energy supply ie gas or solid fuel and no supplementary heating ie electric fires. (very very occasionally in the summer we have used for cooling, a portable air conditioning unit) We also cook and heat the water by electricity. Our last year’s Dec to Dec electricity bills amounted to £1366 in total including standing charges and VAT.

So there you are - I am a very satisfied user of storage heating (except for the running cost which for the building size are actually not too bad - but don’t tell Powergen!!!)

jazzmann

john1 wrote: »

Re storage Heaters (My story for what is worth)

I personally have used storage heaters for the last 43 years. During this time I have never had one failure out of 23 different units installed in 4 homes. So maintenance costs have been zero. Installation cost minimal as I’m also an electrician.

John 1

I thought the big problem with night storage heaters was control and having to anticipate the next day's temperature. How do you get on with that?