Air to water heat source system

[Deleted User]

I think what cardew is saying is I and others should consider first and foremost is to update the existing LPG system or possibly install an oil system... The problem with these fossil fuels, and I've had both, is the price is highly volatile with LPG attracting the most awful contracts. Basically the suppliers charge as much as they can possibly get away with. It's all very well quoting EST/Which figures but they are generalisations often out of date. Honestly the amout of articles i've seen written about ASHP/GSHPs the journos clearly have no idea what they are on about. I try to give real world experiences...

With being all electric I have the option of shopping around the big energy suppliers, certainty of supply, convenience and not to forgetting the investment in solar PV which many have. The beauty of which the ASHP has started to run for free in the sunshine now winter is over. Not to be sniffed at if the house is occupied during the day. That of course adds a slant to my figures...

[Deleted User]

Cardew wrote: »

I am saying that Jeepjunkie quoting savings of £1,734 per year is meaningless unless we have some figures.

What was he spending on LPG to save such a sum - £10,000 pa?

What consumption is for the heat pump?

Jeepjunkie was complaining he couldn't calculate his COP because Mitsubishi wouldn't play ball.

WHICH give some average costs for LPG and Oil with the parameters spelt out. Ofgem give average gas consumption of 16,500kWh gas and 3,300kWh electricity.

They also give a view on the results of the EST trial.

The report makes interesting reading:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=35145...CED12884A5!173

My figures have all been posted before.

As for monitoring it was EST/DECC that were messing me around not Mits. Fortunately we have professional heating engineers at work for COP measuring/calculation.

albyota

From the energy saving trust.....

The Energy Saving Trust's heat pump field trial is the most wide ranging monitoring exercise of domestic heat pump installations and customer feedback undertaken to date in the UK. The trial was launched in July 2008 to monitor the performance of 83 heat pumps installed in UK homes for a period of at least 12 months. It was then extended for a second year for additional monitoring. Final results will be released later in 2012.

The initial findings illustrated that heat pump performance is highly dependent upon appropriate installation and integration with the building’s existing heating system, as well as appropriate control by the customer.

The report provides a number of key recommendations for customers interested in purchasing a heat pump.

So that's only 83 heat pumps......only 29....yes only 29 were air source heat pumps....the trial was in 2008..... Nearly five years have past.......time to stop referring to out of date information.

Cardew

albyota wrote: »

From the energy saving trust.....



So that's only 83 heat pumps......only 29....yes only 29 were air source heat pumps....the trial was in 2008..... Nearly five years have past.......time to stop referring to out of date information.[/QUOTE]

That is misleading on timescales. The trial was not in 2008 It was conceived in 2008 but the actual trial was from April 2009 to April 2010 and the initial results released in September 2010.

As these results were so poor, the trial was extened for a second year to April 2011 (phase 2)and some 'interventions' were made.

This from the EST website.

The Energy Saving Trust's heat pump field trial is the most wide ranging monitoring exercise of domestic heat pump installations and customer feedback undertaken to date in the UK.

The trial was launched in July 2008 to monitor the performance of 83 heat pumps installed in UK homes for a period of at least 12 months. It was then extended for a second year for additional monitoring.

Final results will be released later in 2012.

Well apparently the results of the second year were not the expected improvement, and a final report was not forthcoming, although an interim report was published in March 2012 the current EST website shows:

The trial was launched in July 2008 to monitor the performance of 83 air and ground source heat pumps installed in UK homes for a period of at least 12 months. It was then extended for a second year to undertake additional
monitoring and evaluation of areas highlighted as requiring additional research. Final results of the field trial, including data captured during phase 2 of monitoring, will be released in June 2013.

See:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Organisations/Innovation/Field-trials-and-monitoring/Field-trial-reports/Heat-pump-field-trials

So the results of the EST trial are still the latest(and only?) independant trial of heat pumps and are reasonably up to date. This trial is still referred to by both the EST and WHICH as the guide.

A more detailed guide(113 pages) is the DECC report on the trial- both ASHP and GSHP.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/48327/5045-heat-pump-field-trials.pdf

Had the EST report been unfair about heat pumps, it is inconceivable that all/some of the heat pump manufacturers (I believe 15) who participated in the trial(GSHP & ASHP) would not have cried 'foul' and disassociated themselves from the report. Of course if the report is published in June 2013, and not further delayed, the results could be interesting!!!!!

You also might question why the trial report has taken so long to be published. It took 6 months to publish the Phase 1 report, and apparently they need 30 months to publish Phase 2.

If you want up to date information, just phone the EST - I do!

Incidentally new readers may wish to note that Albyota installs Air Source Heat Pumps for a living. That said his posts are informative and helpful, but with a vested interest he is not happy to see posts like mine.

Cardew

jeepjunkie wrote: »

My figures have all been posted before.

.

Could you give a reference where these figures are posted please.

albyota

The point I'm trying to make Cardew is that new readers ought to be aware that over 10,000 heat pumps have been installed by Mitsubishi alone in the UK and are working very well in suitable houses, the fact that the EST trial was carried out before MCS accreditation proved that more attention to detail was required in the suitability of houses, installers, controls and end user awareness.

Better still let new readers find the out of date information here

http://www.heatpumps.org.uk/PdfFiles/TheEnergySavingTrust-GettingWarmerAFieldTrialOfHeatPumps.pdf

No vested interest...just a happy air source heat pump owner, that happens to work in the industry.

Johnandabby

conger wrote: »

I got a quote in today for a 8 Kw air to water heat source system. The figures worked out that the energy useage would be about £300 per year less and in addition I should recieve back IHP payments of about £1000 per year. Pay back for the system will be less than 5 years. Sounds like a no brainer.

I am located in the Southeast with 1970 terrace and am considering changing from an past its best floor standing gas system.

Are these systems really this cheap to run and has anyone got any experience of these systems.
I wonder if the calculations do not factor any supplementry immersion input cost required in low temperatures.

I am also getting quotes for a replacement gas boiler as a comparison.

any advice on these systems would be welcomed.

Thanks

Getting back to the original post, any payback calculations should be undertaken without the 'possible' RHI payments as they have not been confirmed yet. Otherwise you're just gambling on future Govt policies, which at the moment is probably not a sure thing...

As someone in the energy industry I wouldn't install a heat pump in my own house yet. I've been interested in the hybrid systems that use both a gas boiler and heat pump (Ideal do one at the moment), and picks the most efficient heat source based on external temps etc, but it's still too expensive without the RHI being confirmed.

Cardew

albyota wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make Cardew is that new readers ought to be aware that over 10,000 heat pumps have been installed by Mitsubishi alone in the UK and are working very well in suitable houses, the fact that the EST trial was carried out before MCS accreditation proved that more attention to detail was required in the suitability of houses, installers, controls and end user awareness.

Better still let new readers find the out of date information here

http://www.heatpumps.org.uk/PdfFiles/TheEnergySavingTrust-GettingWarmerAFieldTrialOfHeatPumps.pdf

No vested interest...just a happy air source heat pump owner, that happens to work in the industry.

Sorry Albyota, but that is simply conjecture about Mitsubishi.

What is working very well?

What is a suitable house - by definition then they are installed in unsuitable houses?

Can you see many of these installation firms rejecting a sale because of an unsuitable house?

Also I explained above, that the report in the link you posted is not out of date, the final report is not even published.

In the interim report(see graph page 15) only one ASHP actually achieved a COP of 3.0. Six had a COP of 1.6.

The report states that even with a good ASHP installation the payback period over a new oil CH system is 16 years.

The EST have a mandate to promote Energy Saving and they must be really in a quandry over heat pumps.

The problem with the ASHP industry IMO is that the manufacturers abdicate responsibility by letting firms buy their equipment to install, and problems are then down to the installation firm.

Until the manufacturers give some guarantees of performance in that their equipment will achieve, say, a COP of 3.0 and not hide behind installers badly specifying and/or unsuitable houses, I wouldn't touch an ASHP.

Bear in mind also that even a guaranteed COP of 3.0 would mean 16 years to recoup capital outlay over Oil.

Of course RHI might come to the rescue!

albyota

Ok.....you know best......cheers!

conger

Thanks for all the comments. I have read the energy saving report which is interesting but does not cover all my concerns. I am still worried about the the potential of increased costs during low temperatures such as the period we have just had.
I am also concerned about he noise and potential complaints from the neighbours.
I currently just run my system for short periods in the morning and evening, I am out quite a lot so I dont need the house to be warmed to high temperature. I am happy to just boost temperatures when really cold.

The salesman seemed to have answers to all the questions. He said that a lot of the problems with installations have been because they were undersized. He also said that the noise would be similar to that of a large fridge. If I went for this system it would use all my savings. I dont want to be saddled with a system that is not right.
An engineer is due round on Thursday so I am also going to a couple of quotes for a gas system from local companies.
I am not totally comfortable with the sales pitch and am struggling to find out much about the company who are selling and installing them.

Conger